Steve Pike, founder-Next Wave Community; church planter; author, Discovering the 21st Century Church

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W FOURCY Radio. Churchill said,
those who failed to learn from history are

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condemned to repeat it. Kevin Helenan
believes that certainly applies to business. Welcome

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to Winning Business Radio here at W
four CY Radio. That's W four cy

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dot com and now your host,
Kevin Helena, Welcome back and thanks for

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joining in today once again. I
am Kevin Haleanan and this is Winning Business

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TV and Radio on w CY dot
com. We're streaming live on talk for

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tv dot com in addition to Facebook, and that's at Winning Business Radio.

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And of course we're available in podcasts
after the live show on tons of outlets

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including YouTube, iHeartRadio, Spotify,
Apple, pretty much wherever you listen to

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your favorite podcasts, you can get
a sense of that list at Winning Business

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radio dot com. The mission of
the show, as regular listeners know,

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is to offer insights and advice to
help people avoid the mistakes of others,

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right to learn best practices. Those
are the how tos, the what tos,

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the what not tos, And I
always say to be challenged and hopefully

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to be inspired by the successes of
others. But you know, virtually every

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successful person I've ever had a chance
to talk to has had some form of

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failure in their lives and careers.
So while we all have to get our

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knees skinned once in a while,
I keep saying I'm driven to keep those

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scrapes from needing major surgery. Let's
endeavor to learn from history so we don't

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repeat it today. My guest is
Steve Pike. He's founder of next waveci

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Community, veteran church planter, and
author of Discovering the twenty first Century Century

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Church, as well as the soon
to be released Next Wave Understanding the twenty

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first Century Church. Here's his bio. Steve Pike serves as the catalyst for

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the next Wave Virtual Community, an
online community of church leaders committed to being

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with Jesus on his mission in the
challenging twenty first century context. He's also

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the president and founder of Urban Islands
Project, a national excuse Me collaborative organization

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dedicated to increasing the presence of the
Church in the core of America's urbanized communities.

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Additionally, Steve serves as an executive
coach with Accelerate and as part of

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the coaching consulting consulting team at the
Answer Group. Prior to taking on his

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current responsibilities, Steve was the founding
director of the Church Multiplication Network. CMN

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serves church multipliers to effectively equip,
strategically fund, and innovatively innovatively network new

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faith communities community as WOW in America. Since its formation in two thousand and

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eight, CMN has assisted with the
starting of over forty five hundred new congregations

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in every region of the US.
Steve is the author of the soon to

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be released book The Reimagines Church,
which is a follow up to the bestseller

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Next Way of Discovering the Twenty first
Century Church, an author of Total Fitness

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for Your Church, and co author
with doctor Tim tom Nebell Hope I said

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that correctly, Tom of leading church
multiplication. Steve's passion for church multiplication began

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in nineteen eighty nine when he and
his wife Cherry, pioneered a new church

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that became the catalyst of a church
planting movement in the state of Utah that

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continues to this day. The Pikes
make their home in Denver, Colorado.

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They're blessed to be the parents of
Lindsay and Jeremy, and the grandparents of

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Miles, Cohen, Wesley, James, and Amelia. When he's not working

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with church and nonprofit leaders, Steve
enjoys outdoor adventures with his family in the

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grandeur of his home state of Colorado. Steve, Welcome to Winning Business Radio

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and TV. Appreciate you being here. Thanks Kevin, It's great to be

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with you today. I hope I
pronounced everything correctly. Yeah, you're a

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close enough. Nebel is how you
say Tom's name? Nebel? Okay,

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sorry, Tom, thank you.
I'll get it right next time. So

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listen before we get started. I'm
sure there are some in the viewing and

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listening audiences that are thinking, hey, Kevin, this is a show about

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business, right, so business successes
in challenges? Why do you have a

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Christian church guy in here. Well, it's a fair question, and I

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want to address it, and I
want to hear your thoughts. A church

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is a community believers. Okay,
we get that, But a church also

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has business related challenges like financial stability, growth decline, marketing, and messaging,

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leadership, and the list goes on. Right, So even Jim Collins,

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we all know Good to Great has
a companion for nonprofits. It's a

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companion material for nonprofits. So as
a christ follower who spends a fair amount

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of time in church, quote in
church and served on two boards for many

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years, I've seen those challenges firsthand. And when I first met Steve a

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couple of months ago in Boston,
I knew I wanted to share. I

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wanted him to share his insights and
believe that many of the audience will get

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value. So you want to add
anything to that? No, I think

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you've all what do you want to
know? All right? So let's start

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with your background. Where'd you grow
up? I knew home home is Colorado?

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But whereabouts? Yeah, if if
you followed my journey, you'd think

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I might be trying to stay one
step above the law or ahead of the

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law. I was born in the
state of Washington, kind of grew up

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in Oregon. I went to high
school in Ohio, got married, and

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moved to Florida. I lived in
Jersey, I lived in Utah, I

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lived in outside of Chicago. Now
I'm in Denver and Springfield, Missouri.

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Was another place all over the place. So when you were young, you

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know, kind of like coming up
in a high school. In high school,

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what were your early interests? What
were you into? Oh man,

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you know, I wanted to be
an astronaut, no kidding, that was

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yeah, So I was very I
was just a total nerd about anything having

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to do with space. Even even
went so far as to apply to go

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to the Air Force Academy. I
did some research, and I felt that

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was the best way to becoming at
was to go through that path, and

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started down that path, and then
felt like God directed me in a different

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direction and all the ministry. Yeah, I think I would have enjoyed space.

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I mean, long story short,
I didn't do well my first semester

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freshmen in school. I figured out
the second. But I came back around

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Christmas and said to my dad,
I'm joining the army. It was seventy

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nine, post Vietnam. He said, heck, no, you're going back

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to school. So I wish I
had been in the military, but today

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I think i'd go into Space Force. Yes, yeah, I would too.

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Yeah, so you chose Southeastern University
in Florida and he focused on a

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ministerial degree. What was behind that
were those decisions? Well, that's a

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great question. The bottom line is, I actually felt like God directed me

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to go to Southeastern University. And
it was actually a surprise because, as

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I said, I was actually in
the process of going to the Air Force

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Academy. Really felt like that I
had already reached out to get the endorsements

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I needed and all that kind of
stuff. It's pretty far down the pathway

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toward that, and I just felt
like God kind of interrupted that trajectory and

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sent me in the direction of Southeastern. That's cool. That's cool. And

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you met your wife there. I
did so transition to tell us about your

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wife and your grown kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My wife grew

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up in Florida, so she's one
of the few people that actually were born

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and raised in Florida. Most people
they call them snowbirds or you know,

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aports or whatever. My brother,
his kids, I'm telling you, even

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his kids didn't grow up there.
No, yeah, she actually did until

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I came along, and then I
took her everywhere else. But so she's

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an original Florida girl. And then
we had two kids, Jeremy and Lindsay,

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and they are now married and they
all have so they've given us grandkids,

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which, as some people say,
the grandkids are God's reward for not

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killing your kids when they were teenagers. Great, all right, so you

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started, and I'm taking you back
here, but we'll go, you know,

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we won't take too much time here. But I wanted people to hear

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kind of your career progression. I
mean, how do you get to write

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a book about ministry and about church
growth and have these secrets not really secrets,

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but you know, reveal what you've
learned. Well, you started,

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as many did, or do still. I think I don't know as many

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do that do now. But as
a youth pastor in Jacksonville, tell us

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a bit about that role and your
most important takeaway from that first role.

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Yeah, yeah, that's a great, Yeah, that was. That was

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actually my second youth pastorate position.
The first one was in New Jersey,

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which was kind of a culture shock, and that's actually the first place I

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learned something about the different sort of
personalities of regions of the country. You

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know, we were I was going
to school in Florida, but then we

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moved to New Jersey, and you
know, the culture was just really really

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different. It was just different.
I mean, it wasn't better or worse,

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it was just different. It was
an interesting experience, and that taught

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me something about, Okay, if
you're going to do business or ministry somewhere,

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it's important to understand what people are
like in that region of the country

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and just have a general understanding of
that. Jacksonville was so the first church

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I was at was kind of a
When I went there, I think there

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were I don't know, four or
five hundred people part of the church,

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fairly good sized church, but it
grew to like a thousand people I was

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there in two years. It just
blew up. And then the same thing

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happened in Florida, so I started
to think that was normal. But one

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of the key things I learned in
the church in Jacksonville was just how to

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really recognize what the leaders that I'm
working under, what their priorities are,

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and understand. You know, I
was a pretty young smart alec guy that

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thought I knew everything. I know
that that doesn't characterize you or anybody else

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but that. And you know,
the pastor at one point I was sort

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of challenging some ideas that he had
to, trying to tell him how he

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was wrong about some stuff, and
he basically just very gently and kindly pulled

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me aside and said, look,
I'm the senior pastor, you're not.

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You know, if it comes down
to what I want, what you want,

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it's going to be what I want. That's just the way the world

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works. Until you figure that out, you're going to be pretty frustrated.

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And that was an important lesson that
I learned there, I think, was

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just how to how to function in
a It was it fairly that church was

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you know, started out around five
hundred and went to fifteen hundred you know

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while I was there, and so
I you know, we had a lot

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of moving parts and things like that. So anyway, that was that lesson

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learned. And then Naville High School
pastor, Yeah, that was so that

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was a really big church. That
was you know, twenty five hundred,

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three thousand people sort of multiple mega
church. Yeah, multiple services. You

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know, I had two hundred kids
in my class, in my Sunny school

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class, you know, in the
youth group where you know, we'd have

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a youth event, we'd have a
thousand kids show up and stuff like that.

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So it was a whole different ballgame
than anything I'd previously been part of.

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And you know, that was where
I think I started to get a

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taste. A lot of the people
in Aperville is a very strong it's it's

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kind of a bedroom community of Chicago, and most of the people live in

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Naperville. We're in the middle management
to upper management of big companies and corporations

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and stuff based in Chicago, And
so I found myself working with the kids

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of very high level leaders and and
that was where I really first became introduced

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to, I guess, some of
the complexities and the challenges of really leading

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complicated, large organizations. So that
was that experience there for four years,

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and you had some organizational structure,
no doubt, you had either I don't

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know what you called them, we
used to call ourselves youths staff or how

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many people did you have in your
life? Yeah, yeah, Well,

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so the youth staff there were three
There was a high school pastor, a

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college pastor, and junior high pastor. I was a high school pastor,

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and then you know, we all
had everything that we were paid, but

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then everybody else were volunt volunteer.
But you know, we I had a

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I don't know, twenty five or
thirty volunteers that worked with me to pull

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that off, you know. So
again I learned some stuff about working with

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volunteers and people who don't get paid
anything, they don't have to show up,

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and so you have to learn how
to help them be excited about what

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they're doing beyond just getting a paycheck, you know. Yeah, and is

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that right after that? Was that
Ogden where you started you planned? Right?

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Yeah, yeah, so we're you
know, well, let me just

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mention this for kind of a non
church person, many of whom are listening.

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Yeah, churches don't always they're not
always there. It might seem like

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it's some of the older buildings and
churches, but no, churches have a

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beginning and a growth path, right, So, yes, you started a

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church, go ahead. Yeah,
yeah, so we're you know, up

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to that point, I had been
part of existing churches all my life,

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although I'd had some thoughts along the
way about wow, I think there's this

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a place that needs a church.
So that was kind of in me,

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but I didn't have it wasn't time
to pull the trigger on that. But

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at this point, four years into
it, I really saw an opportunity and

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need for a new church to be
started at all places in Ogden, Utah.

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It's a way too long of a
story to explain how I concluded that,

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but yeah, you're right. I
mean the churches, every church actually

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at some point had a beginning.
I mean, they don't just always exist.

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And I think sometimes people do see
these old buildings with moss anonymous,

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and we think, well, that's
just always been here. But at some

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point even the old buildings with moss
were an idea in somebody's head or a

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sense of calling. You a pastor
would say, a sense of calling,

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excuse me. And so we had
this sense of calling to go start a

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church in Utah and help people there
follow Jesus. And yeah, so we

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moved there. It was a in
church planning world we call a parachute drop.

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We just you know, parachuted out
of the plane metaphorically speaking. We

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had no no visible means of support, except for we did raise some support

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from some churches and individuals who said, man, we we think that this

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is something that is a good thing. We want to help you do that.

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So we got some some kind of
monthly support to give us to be

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able to put food on the table
and you know, have a house over

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our head or roof over our head
and stuff like that in the startup phase

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until the congregation formed. And so
yeah, it was after the race.

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Is my first church planning experience.
Well, I have more questions about Ogden,

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but this time for our first break, we're going to be back in

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00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.919
just about a minute. Steve everybody
else will be back with Steve Pike in

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00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:09.279
about sixty seconds. You're listening to
Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helene on W

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00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:13.840
four CY Radio. That's W four
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business Radio with Kevin Helenan, presenting exciting

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topics and expert guests with one goal
in mind to help you succeed in business.

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00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:15.519
Here once again is Kevin Helenett.
We're back with Steve Pike. He

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00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:18.960
is the founder of Next Wave Community, veteran church planter, author of Discovering

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the twenty first Century Church as well
as soon to be released Next Wave Understanding

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the twenty first Century Church. So, you know, the Northeast, to

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me, the Northeast has you know, Catholic churches everywhere, some Baptists,

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mostly Catholic churches. So for someone
planting a church in the Northeast, most

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of the people you're reaching out to
are Catholic, right, just their tradition.

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In Ogden, it's LDS, right. Was that a challenge? Okay?

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Yeah, yeah, well definitely Utah
and Ogden. We're not at the

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top of the church planter's favorite place
to go list, yes, so yes,

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most of the people In fact,
you know this actual statistics, I

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think we're around sixty seven to seventy
percent of the people would identify as people

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members of the LDS. Church,
or they would be friends of the LDS

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church. Probably about half of those
were actually active people, and then the

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other The interesting about Utah is the
other twenty nine percent. So that you

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got about thirty or seventy percent LDS, twenty nine percent, well, let

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me flip it. Around one percent
would or less than one percent would identify

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as Christian, and then about twenty
nine percent would identify as very anti religious,

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not just so very you know,
we felt kind of like the story

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00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.119
about shoe salesman who arrives at a
place and you know, there's two of

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them. They go to the same
place and one writes back after a week

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and he goes, man, I
cannot sell any shoes here because nobody wears

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shoes. I love. The other
guy writes back and says, this is

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00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:03.599
awesome. I can shell sell shoes
to everyone because nobody wears shoes. So,

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you know, we decided to have
the attitude of the second guy and

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say, Okay, yeah, nobody's
really interested in the church here, but

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there's people that are here that are
people who they don't know it yet,

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but they would like to have a
relationship with Jesus, and we want to

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help them find Jesus, So that
was kind of our attitude, and incredibly

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enough, we saw that happen.
We saw hundreds and hundreds of people become

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followers of Jesus over the years,
and we helped start five other churches in

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Yuzah during that same decade. And
that's where I kind of got bit with

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the church planting and church multiplication bug. And what years were those that would

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have been the nineties from basically the
beginning of nineteen ninety to the end to

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the beginning of twenty of two thousand
was ten years. Yeah, so that

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seems to me to be pre kind
of church planting, pre arc pre yeah.

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Oh yeah, man, pre you
know all that right, right,

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yeah, yeah, there was towards
the end of the nineties that's when some

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of the more intentional things began to
happen. There was actually a thing called

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the Church Muliplication Institute, I think
was what it was called at the time,

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and a guy named Bob Logan created
the church Planter's Toolkit. But that

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was all that stuff was created after
we'd already started the church, you know.

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So yeah, we we just had
to pray a lot and figure it

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out, and again, by God's
grace we did. Yeah, all right,

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So then, if I'm following the
timeline, you took a denominational or

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regional district level leadership role church director
of church planting and development in Colorado,

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Tellis, Yeah. Yeah, So
the way that the denomination was organized was

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Colorado and Utah were one region called
the Rocky Mountain. At that time,

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it was called the Rocky Mountain District. Now we call it the Rocky Mountain

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Network whatever, just different cooler names. But yeah, so I went.

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I'd lived in Ogden for ten years
and then was approached by the district and

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they said, we'd like you to
do for the whole district what you've been

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doing in Utah, and so we
felt like that was the right thing for

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us to do. So yeah,
we moved to Colorado Springs and worked from

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there and helped start churches throughout not
just Utah but also Colorado. And that

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again, what what what's happening for
me as I make these different changes was

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you know, my goodness, Utah
culture was dramatically different from the culture of

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Naperville that I came from. And
then and then going to Colorado. Colorado,

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you've got people on the plains that
are ranchers and farmers and stuff.

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Then you have the Front Range,
which is where Denver and it's very it's

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you know, it's pretty urban and
uh and and you know, every all

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the problems of large cities you're going
to find in Denver and some of the

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large cities along the Front Range.
Then you have the mountain communities, the

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resort communities. But then on the
they call it the West Slope like Rifle

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and Injunction, everybody's got gun wrecks
in the back of their pickups and there,

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you know, there they're farmers and
ranchers and it's the Old West.

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And then you get to Utah,
which is, you know, its own

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personal thing. So we had to
you know, every time somebody said,

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hey, I want to plant a
church, you know, I had to

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think, Okay, where do you
feel like you're supposed to be going and

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00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:26.599
help them navigate the the mega or
the local cultural difference that they were going

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to experience, because planning in church
in Denver is not the same as Yuma,

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you know, which is way out
on the eastern plains, and it's

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00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:37.599
not the same as Veil or you
know, in Grand Junction or Salt Lake

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City. You know, so every
place is a little different, so you

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00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:44.960
can't just do the same thing every
place and expect the same kind of results

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00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:51.039
that sounds familiar. In fact,
then you moved into a national denominational leadership

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00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:55.880
role, actually three roles as I
saw it, I think so administrator US

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00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.440
missions, Director of church planting and
Development, and then director of the founding

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00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:07.079
director of Church Multiplication Network, right
those organizations. Well this, yeah,

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yeah, this is where I had
to learn how to navigate big organizations.

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00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:18.079
This was a very complicated, large
organization. The national office for this denomination

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00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:22.680
had over one thousand employees in that
one building in Springfield, Missouri. So

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and we served thirteen almost thirteen thousand
churches, three million constituents just in the

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United States. But then the American
Church also served as kind of the kind

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00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:41.640
of the lead church for the entire
world. And you know, this denomination

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had something at that time, I
think about sixty seventy million people worldwide,

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00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:49.880
about two hundred and fifty thousand churches. So it's a really big, complicated,

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00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:56.559
multi layered organization. And I found
myself so sort of yanked out of

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00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:00.640
being in a small version of that
to just being all of a sudden,

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00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:03.440
man, I've got all these The
language we use was publics. We have

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00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:11.000
all these different publics we have to
communicate with constituents. Public yeah, yeah,

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00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:12.799
yes, yes, but they're like
you know, some of they're different

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00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:17.839
layers of leaders, different responsibilities.
We had to interact with all of them.

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00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:21.920
And it was in the middle of
all that MAYLEEU that I had to

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00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:25.359
kind of figure out. I went
there kind of a little bit confused as

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to I knew. I felt like
I was supposed to be there. It

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00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:33.440
was a great opportunity, but I
felt like what I had a vision for

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00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:38.599
was really going to be hard to
pull off within the confines of a very

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00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:42.400
established At this point that we were
about the organization about ready to celebrate its

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00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:48.359
hundredth anniversary. And churches are probably
more stuck than any business ever gets when

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00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:52.079
it comes to, you know,
just honoring tradition and keeping things the same

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00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:56.559
stasis is the way they tend to
go rather than you know, changing and

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00:23:56.599 --> 00:24:00.319
flexing and stuff like that. And
what I felt like needed to have happened

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00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:06.559
with some pretty pretty radical restructuring.
And so the bottom line is, uh,

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I described my time there. I
was there for eight and a half

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00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:15.279
years, and I liken it to
four levels of a video game where at

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00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:18.839
each level you have to kind of
you know, you win, you kill

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00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:21.880
the dragon orders and save the princess, and you get to go to the

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00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:25.079
next level. Yeah, and I
had to so when I first got there,

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00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:26.960
I had to kind of read the
reality of what I was facing and

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00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:32.400
win that first version and so on
all the way through. So in doing

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00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:37.279
so, that's when I was I
was actually able to start this organization within

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00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:44.599
the organization called Church Muliplication Network,
which which gave the proper, i would

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00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:51.599
say, the proper emphasis to starting
new churches for this older organization. And

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00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.559
it gave us a rallying place.
It gave us an organizational hub, It

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00:24:55.599 --> 00:25:02.160
gave us resources, all kinds of
stuff to begin to really that that organization

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00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:07.480
a welcome place for people who felt
like they're supposed to start a church.

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00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:11.000
We we created a way for them
they could contact us and we okay,

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00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:15.480
we can help you do this.
You're not by yourself and you have all

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00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:19.480
this whole big organization behind you.
And that's why I kind of resources we

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sort of we sort of were able
to focus all of the resources that were

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00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:29.640
already part of the organization as well
as create some new resources to provide.

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00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.599
Yeah, coaching, training, funding, that was a big one. Funding

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00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:40.400
always assessing, you know, just
all that kind of stuff to help the

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00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:44.119
planters be successful. That was at
the end of day. That's what we

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00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:47.359
did. Touch on assessing for a
minute, because that's something we do as

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00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:51.960
well in a business world a lot. Good. Well, you know what's

355
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:59.240
interesting is the assessment tool that became
very popular was actually it actually came out

356
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:03.480
of the business world and it was
based on behavioral interviewing. The concept of

357
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:07.440
behavioral interviewing, which was my understanding, very much part of the business world,

358
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:10.960
and it was kind of a whole
new thing. You know that your

359
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:15.720
typical ministerial interview is more about people
they want to hear your heart for God

360
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:21.400
and for God's calling and stuff,
which is totally part of it, but

361
00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:29.079
it often overlooked. What what behavioral
interviewing gets to is the competencies of a

362
00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:32.559
person. You know, so,
yeah, what element not not to say

363
00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:34.000
no to them but no, no, no, no, maybe, but

364
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:38.680
really to talk about where the development
opportunities are right exactly exactly. And the

365
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:41.880
way we get at that was actually
it was it was developed by this guy

366
00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:45.400
named doctor Charles Ridley, who was
a professor at that time. I think

367
00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:48.680
he was at the University of Indiana. He was a believer, but he

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00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:55.799
was His job at the university was
to basically formulate these assessment tools for business,

369
00:26:56.119 --> 00:26:57.200
and as he was doing that,
he thought, you know, this

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00:26:57.240 --> 00:27:02.920
could have this could be applied to
church because there's so many commonalities in terms

371
00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:07.680
of the startup things that are necessary
in starting up a church that are very

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00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:11.160
similar to starting up a business.
And so anyway, he created he did

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00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:18.480
some research and created a profile that
was predictive. If you did a proper

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00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:25.359
behavioral interview, you could actually predict
the effectiveness of an individual before they even

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00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:32.319
started based on their past behavior.
And so that's something it's hard to do

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00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:37.559
without skilled people leading those interviews.
So I actually went and got trained how

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00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:38.960
to do behavioral interviews, how to
write them, how to develop them,

378
00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:41.519
how to interpret them, all that
kind of stuff, and then we trained

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00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:48.839
a whole fleet of people to do
that within the denomination and within church muliplication

380
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:52.039
network and so anybody that started a
church for many years, and I think

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00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:56.519
to some degree it's been modified as
time is gone, but that is still

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00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:00.880
the one of the root things that
helps. So what we wanted to do

383
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:07.319
was stop sending people out on suicide
missions that weren't really they just didn't have

384
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:11.519
the right wiring innately, or they
just weren't ready, and this helped us

385
00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:15.200
have an objective way to figure that
out. And so I think we probably

386
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.440
saved a lot of marriages and a
lot of pain and suffering from well intended,

387
00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:22.000
good hearted people. And sometimes,
like you said, it wasn't yes

388
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:25.319
or no, it was more like
not yet, or hey, go do

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00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:27.000
this, you know, for the
next couple of years, then come back

390
00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:30.119
and you probably be ready kind of
stuff. So that really was helpful,

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00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:36.839
all right. So following the timeline, you then founded and still lead as

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00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:40.960
CEO Urban Islands Project, which to
me is fascinating. So tell us about

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00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:44.599
that initiative and that organization. We've
got about a minute to start. We'll

394
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:48.359
come back after this next break,
so go ahead. Okay, So the

395
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:52.359
bottom line is working as I did. You know, we started several thousand

396
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:56.240
churches while I was in the leadership
role, and I saw churches being started

397
00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:59.160
everywhere, but one of the places
they weren't being started very much where it

398
00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:03.319
was in urban context, its like
in the city centers, and that bothered

399
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.640
me, and I wondered about it. And at first I tried to fix

400
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:08.839
it from inside where I was at. I thought, I'm the leader of

401
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:12.240
this big national thing. I could
I can do it. But I really

402
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:15.519
felt like, man, it's going
to require way more focus, and so

403
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:23.359
I resigned my position and jumped out
of again, did another parishon and started

404
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:32.160
this this idea of Urban Islands project. And I'll tell you maybe maybe I

405
00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:34.440
don't know when the break's coming up, so I what I'm about to say

406
00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:37.480
might take more than third. We'll
do it right here. Hold that thought.

407
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:41.079
We're going to come right back to
Urban Islands Project in about one minute.

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00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:51.319
Okay, you're listening to Winning Business
Radio with Kevin Helenet on W four

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00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:55.880
Cy Radio. That's W four cy
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410
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411
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418
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419
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and save local. And now back
to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helene,

420
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:45.359
presenting exciting topics and expert guests with
one goal in mind to help you succeed

421
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:56.039
in business. Here once again is
Kevin Helena. We're back with Steve Pike,

422
00:30:56.039 --> 00:31:02.240
who in the timeline we're discussing ce
of Urban Islands Project to go ahead.

423
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:07.799
Yeah, so Urban Islands Project was
was born out of like the first

424
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:11.799
thing I did as I was in
transition out of this national office. I

425
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:14.640
did a little bit of I did
enough research, and I've been around cities

426
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:18.640
enough to figure out cities are like
a thousand islands smashed together. And so

427
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:22.839
you take all this stuff I've learned
about the different cultures of different places,

428
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:26.640
and I realized in cities you can
actually have just from block to block even

429
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:33.559
sometimes really really really different cultural realities. And so when for that was one

430
00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:37.039
of the reasons I realized that churches
weren't often started in cities because you come

431
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:41.759
in there and you're trying to serve
a whole bunch of different kinds of people

432
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:45.720
instead of realizing, way, everybody
who lives in like this ten block area

433
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:48.720
kind of cares about this stuff,
and if you go over on the other

434
00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:52.400
side of some street, they're going
to care about a different set of things

435
00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:56.559
and so, and the church needs
to be aware of that. So anyway,

436
00:31:56.759 --> 00:31:59.640
So but I that was sort of
a theory to begin with. But

437
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:01.319
I just urban Islands. That's pretty
good name, pretty fun, you know,

438
00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:06.079
so let's go with that. We
called it that. We moved into

439
00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:08.559
Denver. We chose Denver for a
bunch of different reasons, but anyway,

440
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:13.720
we moved into the downtown, to
the heart of Denver. I'm in the

441
00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:19.160
shadow of the skyscrapers in a they
call it a first ring neighborhood, right

442
00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:22.440
outside of the central business district.
And we have all the stuff that you

443
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:25.119
hear about if you're not an urban
person, you hear about, you know,

444
00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:29.480
the gunshots and the drugs and the
homeless and all this stuff. It's

445
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:32.119
all right here. We live in
the middle of that rich and poor live

446
00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:36.720
right next together. That whole thing. It's just all the urban stuff.

447
00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:39.279
So anyway, I felt like for
me to have credibility with urban people,

448
00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:42.480
I had to be urban myself.
That was ten years ago, so I

449
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:46.799
think I'm a legit urban person now. I really understand living in the urban.

450
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:50.319
But the other thing I wanted to
figure out was how do you start

451
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:52.839
churches? And the only way I
knew to do it is just let's let's

452
00:32:53.359 --> 00:32:58.160
just do the best we can with
what we know and get some people to

453
00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:00.559
be willing. So my original idea
was, let's start with ten churches in

454
00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:04.799
the same city at the same time, like in different neighborhoods. Like.

455
00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:07.440
We felt like we needed to focus
on the neighborhoods, not on the big

456
00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:12.960
city, but just on the neighborhoods
as like little islands that we would start

457
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:16.519
a church for each island. So
our goal was to get ten. We

458
00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:23.400
got seven church planning teams to come
into seven different neighborhoods of Denver and start

459
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:28.720
basically at the same time, seven
different churches in these seven different neighborhoods.

460
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:32.640
And it was fascinating the stuff we
learned and that's actually what led to the

461
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:37.559
book Next Wave, which we'll talk
about in a minute. But anyway,

462
00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:42.640
long story short, we went on
to I thought, this isn't going to

463
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:45.359
work. If I have to live
in the city every city, I can't

464
00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:50.759
do it. So because I wanted
to scale faster than one person could do

465
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:52.079
it, so we said, let's
try to do it in some other cities

466
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:54.680
where we don't live. So we
did it in Minneapolis Saint Paul. We

467
00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:58.640
did it in New York City,
we did it in Nashville, and each

468
00:33:58.680 --> 00:34:01.240
place we started clusters churches in the
same city at the same time, in

469
00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:07.000
different neighborhoods, and from that is
where the principles we discovered the principles of

470
00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:12.159
Next Way the twenty first century church. So transition there because I'm really curious

471
00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:15.199
about some of the analytics you've uncovered, some of the trends and lessons that

472
00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:20.360
you've learned here. Yeah, yeah, so what First of all, we've

473
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:24.800
the big thing we figured out was
cities, the city center especially. There's

474
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:31.719
something about the collective of creatives and
movers and shakers that happened around the city

475
00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:39.320
that make cities kind of natural cultural
shapers, their cultural architects cities collectively,

476
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:45.159
the people live in cities are the
collective architects of culture. And so like

477
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:49.599
all the whenever people think about American
culture, it's kind of being born in

478
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:52.280
the cities. That's where it's being
born, and then it's exported out through

479
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:58.199
the different It happens faster than ever
because of stuff like this, but it

480
00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:00.440
starts in the city. So anyway, we figured out, wait, if

481
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:04.559
we can figure out what are the
principles that leads to success in the city,

482
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:07.960
that's going to be helpful to everybody. And we realize what's happening is

483
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:13.039
the city is transitioning from a twentieth
century culture to a twenty first century culture.

484
00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:16.079
And here's some of the principles for
the church specifically, but I think

485
00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:21.760
it applies to any endeavor. Really
you need to understand. One of them

486
00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:27.760
is for a church to be effective
in a city, they've got to be

487
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:32.559
willing to diversify their revenue stream plan. In other words, most churches start

488
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:37.159
with the idea that the way that
the church is going to be supported is

489
00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:40.159
through the giving of the people who
attend the church, and that's been the

490
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:45.280
gold standard of how churches are supported
the problem with in a city. If

491
00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:51.079
you go into an underserved community,
it's really hard for the income level of

492
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:54.320
the folks that are living in that
community to be enough to support a full

493
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:59.079
time leader and a building and all
the stuff you need for quote unquote a

494
00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:01.760
church to exist. But it's also
a problem on the other end of the

495
00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:07.320
scale in the more upscale places,
just finding a place to meet that's affordable.

496
00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:10.679
It's crazy. You know, one
church we worked with, it wasn't

497
00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:13.760
one of the ones we were helping
to start, but they reached out to

498
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:15.400
us, said, hey, help
us figure this out. They were spending

499
00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:22.639
not making this out, four thousand
dollars a week to rent a performance venue

500
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:27.599
a neighborhood they wanted to be.
It was the only place they could gather

501
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:30.360
and it would only handle about one
hundred and fifty people at the most.

502
00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:35.360
And so you do the math.
I mean, it was four thousand a

503
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:39.559
week just for three hours to use
the space for three hours, and they

504
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:43.440
had to get in, do their
thing, get out, clean it up

505
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.320
when they left every week. It
was just insane. That church barely made

506
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:50.599
it a year in that venue.
They had to move to a different space,

507
00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:53.800
and they just never got the momentum
they needed. So anyway, there's

508
00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:59.119
an economic problem now. But they
were trying to do it based on this

509
00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:04.880
old idea that you have to have
your money comes from people that are attending

510
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:07.400
the church, and the math just
would never work. With one hundred and

511
00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:09.960
fifty people. You could not come
up with enough money even if they were

512
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:15.239
all very wealthy to cover the costs. You have to have diversified revenue strings,

513
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:20.280
which means things like co vocational in
other words, the leader, the

514
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:22.559
pastors, the staff. Everybody has
to bring themselves somewhat. They have to

515
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:28.119
have a side gig or something to
support themselves. You have to do partnerships

516
00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:31.480
with nonprofits, partnerships and for profits. Like my favorite story of a partnership

517
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:37.599
with the for profit is where this
guy wanted to start a church in Minneapolis

518
00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:40.719
Saint Paul. And he called me
up and he said, hey, I

519
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:44.360
cannot He said, I want to
start a church in minnefo Saint Paul,

520
00:37:44.360 --> 00:37:47.039
but I cannot figure out the ROI
Well, most church planners don't use that

521
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:51.480
language. Yeah, yeah, I
bet The answer to your question is in

522
00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:52.599
your story. What's your story?
He says, Well, I grew up

523
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:58.360
in the nation of Venezuela. I
became a professional dancer. I love a

524
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:00.840
dance studio, and I ended up
in a chain of dance studies across the

525
00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:07.920
nation Eventzuela. And I said,
do you know here's your there it is?

526
00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:14.159
He said, yeah, see,
I said that you know, what

527
00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:15.639
are you waiting for? You know? And he goes, oh my goodness.

528
00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:20.119
And so he started One Reason dance
studio and then six months later he

529
00:38:20.119 --> 00:38:22.559
started One Reason Church. And that's
awesome. That created a revenue stream that

530
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:27.159
provided the building for them, and
then he was able to get money from

531
00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:30.360
other places. But that's just I
mean, there's a billion examples of that.

532
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:32.480
So that's a big key thing for
the future. And I think even

533
00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:37.719
you know, when you think about
businesses and stuff like that, everybody has

534
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:39.039
to be more fleet foot than we
ever used to be. You know,

535
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:45.239
everything keeps changing so rapidly. You
can't just get stuck somewhere. Well COVID

536
00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:50.639
right the word it's only five letters. I write it now with a small

537
00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:53.639
sea just not to just not to
give it the respect that it may deserve.

538
00:38:53.679 --> 00:38:58.280
I don't know, but do you
think a tenants is going to come

539
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:01.639
back? I mean, you visited
us in Boston and in Canton, Massachusetts.

540
00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:07.159
And you know, we've noticed that, uh, those that call it

541
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:10.039
home still it hasn't changed much,
you know, up and down a little

542
00:39:10.039 --> 00:39:15.599
bit, but it hasn't changed people
that come on a Sunday has in favor

543
00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:20.519
of online. Yeah. Absolutely,
I mean COVID was definitely. I think

544
00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:23.119
I think I've heard someone else say
this, but I'm saying it now like

545
00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:27.079
I said so, but I think
somebody else said this first, and that

546
00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:35.760
is COVID really exposed some problems that
church I saw, Yeah, and and

547
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:42.320
so I think that COVID was it
accelerated the awareness that we all have of

548
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:45.840
WHOA, we got to make some
changes here. So I don't I don't

549
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:52.360
think that now here's if you look
at what's actually happening right now. And

550
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:57.400
again this is way oversimplifying, but
the big trend is the big churches are

551
00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:02.719
gaining during following a lot of people
who who left their churches during COVID are

552
00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:09.800
going back to larger churches to find
larger well, I mean, it depends

553
00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:14.039
on where you're at. In Utah
largest five hundred, you know, in

554
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:21.599
in Texas large as twenty thousand.
So but anyway, the point is they're

555
00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:27.920
going to churches that can kind of
provide the full uh expectation of what they

556
00:40:28.039 --> 00:40:32.599
have as church goers. Childcare,
yeah, all that stuff, and so

557
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:38.639
and so. In that in that
sense, you know, people are becoming

558
00:40:38.679 --> 00:40:43.360
more consumeristic maybe than ever before.
You know, they got they got kicked

559
00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:46.559
out, they don't want to.
But then at the other end of the

560
00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:52.239
spectrum, what's interesting is so you
have the bigger churches are getting bigger and

561
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:55.559
the but there's more smaller churches popping
up all over the place because what's happened

562
00:40:55.599 --> 00:41:00.519
is there's been a wave of you
call them what you want, non traditional,

563
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:06.559
unconventional kinds of church like well,
the dance church is an example I

564
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:10.079
gave you just now. But there's
there's coffee house churches, there's dinner churches,

565
00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:16.480
there's micro churches, there's uh,
there's there's networks of churches like the

566
00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:21.800
Tampa Underground and the Case Underground that
are meeting in people's homes and stuff like

567
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:25.599
that. And so in some ways
you've got both the churches kind of going

568
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:31.800
in two different directions. One is
really more like performance oriented and and the

569
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:37.320
quality is what people are looking for. The other one is more experience oriented

570
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:43.159
incarnational oriented. Neither I'm not.
I think both are right. Both are

571
00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:45.639
fine. But what's happening is the
churches in the middle are struggling. The

572
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:52.079
churches the middle size, say two
hundred to five hundred that used to be

573
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:55.639
sort of the bread and butter of
the church, it's it's becoming less.

574
00:41:55.639 --> 00:42:00.199
So they're either people are leaving those
churches because they're not quite good enough for

575
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:07.199
the consumers and they're two churchy for
the people who long for something more organic

576
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:09.880
and incarnational and stuff like that,
and so there's a struggle. So those

577
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:14.760
churches are where people are not coming
back to. Is those middle ground churches

578
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:17.599
is again way over simplification. But
that's kind of the big picture right now.

579
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:22.440
Tough question, not sure you can
answer to your best What advice would

580
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:27.960
you have for that middle church?
Oh, I think the answer for them

581
00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:34.239
is if I would say, if
if they're on the cusp of being a

582
00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:37.480
church that can really be kind of
a regional church, that's that's going to

583
00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:42.800
attract people from all over them,
figure out what it takes to get over

584
00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:47.079
that hump. But for most churches
in that range, I would encourage them

585
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:54.840
to pivot to more of a strategy
of how can we start more artists I

586
00:42:54.880 --> 00:43:00.000
call them artesian churches. I call
them like, how can we find leaders

587
00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:04.440
within our congregation that have an itch
about something? Again, maybe it's the

588
00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:07.360
guy, yeah, you know that
always wanted to have a coffee shop or

589
00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:10.400
something. Okay, well let's go
out and do the research. What's it

590
00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:13.599
going to take. Is there a
need for coffee shop? And then start

591
00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:17.719
a coffee shop and a church and
resource that. So I just think we

592
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:22.280
have to the churches in the middle
are going to have to go one direction

593
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:27.239
or the other. And so my
advice would be figure out which which way

594
00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:30.199
makes the most sense for you.
And honestly, the great thing about the

595
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:36.880
more organic incarnational forms of church is
there's less financial risk in that direction.

596
00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:39.519
You know, to go the to
go to the big you're gonna have to

597
00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:45.119
It's it's almost like you know,
starting, uh, starting a big company

598
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:47.119
or something. You've got to come
up with lots of capital and you know,

599
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:52.239
everything got to be just right.
That the margin for error is very

600
00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:58.639
very small in that approach, whereas
starting experiments in the other direction, which

601
00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:00.320
is actually this is what the remage
churches about. The book that we're just

602
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:07.880
writing is helping churches think about how
do we reimagine ourselves and start these little

603
00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:13.159
spin off things. And yet they're
they're connected. They're not just out there

604
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:16.840
completely isolated, but they're connected.
I think that's where things are going to

605
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:21.719
trend, and that's where things are
going to go. So we've got about

606
00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:25.800
five minutes. I want to touch
on the twelve shifts necessary for you say,

607
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:29.239
for every twenty first century church.
Lad I'm going to touch on a

608
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:36.559
few. Feel free to jump in
and mention when I may not reimagine discipleship.

609
00:44:36.679 --> 00:44:39.280
I got it. I was really
taken by that one. Yeah.

610
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:45.519
Yeah, So people when they think
of discipleship, they think about helping people

611
00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:52.280
who are already following Jesus follow him
better, you know, grow and grow

612
00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:54.280
in Jesus, grow in their faith. That kind of stuff. That's become

613
00:44:54.360 --> 00:44:59.519
the definition discipleship. But if you
look at the biblical picture of disciple making

614
00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:01.960
Jesus, this went out and he
said to these guys fishing, he said,

615
00:45:01.960 --> 00:45:05.760
I want you guys to follow me, just come with me tax collector.

616
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:10.199
Those guys were not well thought of
because they were actually, you know,

617
00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:15.000
colluding with the Romans to rip off
their fellow Jewish family and friends,

618
00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:19.800
you know, so they were not
thought he invited him to come. And

619
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:22.639
so there's a question I like to
ask people is when do the disciples become

620
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:27.280
Christians? And you know, most
people go, oh, that's it.

621
00:45:27.400 --> 00:45:31.000
Yeah, And the answer is,
it's hard to tell because there isn't a

622
00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:36.039
place in the story in any of
the Gospels where it clearly says and at

623
00:45:36.039 --> 00:45:37.639
this point they prayed the sinner's prayer
or whatever you want to call it.

624
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:45.719
And so the reality is making disciples
starts with you interacting with somebody who's not

625
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:52.079
yet following Jesus and helping them move
toward Jesus. And that's what reimagining discipleship

626
00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:54.760
is about, is thinking about it. I call it broadband disciple making.

627
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:59.679
Helping people move toward Jesus, helping
people grow with Jesus. We're called to

628
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:02.599
do both both of those, and
that means we can make disciples of everybody

629
00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:07.480
in our life somehow, some shape. All right, what about rethinking team

630
00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:10.960
building? Yeah, yeah, So
one of the challenges again this is in

631
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:17.440
the context of starting new churches.
Typically, what the twentieth century church plant

632
00:46:17.480 --> 00:46:24.159
was, let's get a really excellent
worship leader and a really excellent youth pastor.

633
00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:30.280
So they would build a team out
of position players who are like experts

634
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:36.760
in different things that the proclamational church
needed the traditional church needed to be attractive

635
00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:43.119
to people. Well, what we're
suggesting is if the disciple mak Jesus actually

636
00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:45.519
never said to make or to start
churches, he said to make disciples.

637
00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:50.679
So if disciples is what we're called
to do, then what you actually want

638
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:53.280
to start a church with is people
who are just as they do life,

639
00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:58.920
they're making disciples of people around them. And so that's the rethinking team building.

640
00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:01.039
Instead of going out and finding the
best position players, you go out

641
00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:06.440
and find people who are disciple makers
as they do life and invite them onto

642
00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:10.599
your team so that that community of
disciples can grow so really relational in their

643
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:15.159
heart, absolutely so. And that's
and that's the contrast because a lot of

644
00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:20.039
times, like the worship leaders like
hold up somewhere, you know, singing

645
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:22.360
songs for themselves. Yeah, in
the green room, but you want people

646
00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:25.719
who are out there, you know, connected. Yep, all right,

647
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:30.280
last one we have time for We
talked about this just slightly, but refresh

648
00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:34.360
the metrics. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, So the big the big

649
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:37.039
thing. You know most churches when
when people say, hey, how's it

650
00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:39.199
going? Oh good? In fact, I've been saying this all day,

651
00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:43.360
like we ran this many, we
ran two hundred, five hundred thousand,

652
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:46.199
two thousand whatever. We identify the
church by how many people show up on

653
00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:51.519
Sunday to hear the pastor preach.
I mean, oversimplifying it, and that's

654
00:47:51.559 --> 00:47:53.639
the metric you use. Well,
the problem with that metric is it's like

655
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:58.800
it's almost I compare that to you
being in a car it's going eighty miles

656
00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:01.880
an hour because the only two gauges
that you can see are how fast are

657
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:07.760
we going and how much gas does
they tank? The spinometer says we're going

658
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:10.599
eighty, the gas tank says it's
full. Sounds like everything's great, But

659
00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:14.440
the rest of the story is you're
going downhill. You have no brakes on

660
00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:17.639
your head for a cliff. Okay, those two gauges are not giving you

661
00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:22.119
all the information you need to know
if that car is healthier or not.

662
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:24.239
The engine fell out. You know
you're going eighty miles an hour, but

663
00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:28.880
it has no engine. So my
point is just saying, well, we

664
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:32.400
have two thousand people doesn't mean it's
a healthy church. So we have to

665
00:48:32.519 --> 00:48:37.760
have other metrics, and so some
of those would be what we just talked

666
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:40.559
about, like how many disciples are
being made is one question. We actually

667
00:48:40.599 --> 00:48:45.480
had one of our churches here in
Denver, they started measuring their effectiveness by

668
00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:52.239
how many keys to their neighbors' homes
they had because the neighbors had given them

669
00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:57.400
their key because they trusted us,
Yes, and that was actually a tangible

670
00:48:57.440 --> 00:49:00.199
expression of trust. And they said, we want that to be how we're

671
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:04.119
known in this community, in this
neighborhood. So that's a that's an example

672
00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:07.639
of a different kind of metry.
There is so much more. Wish we

673
00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:09.639
had time. It's been really awesome
having you here, Steve. Thank you

674
00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:13.239
so much and are you really busy? I appreciate your time. Thanks Kevin.

675
00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:15.599
This has been an honor, uh
one. If you put on the

676
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:19.559
Crawl one more time, hope people
can reach out. The new Time book

677
00:49:19.599 --> 00:49:24.039
book comes out when, Uh,
that's a good question. Eminently within the

678
00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:28.199
Yeah, they haven't given us a
date yet, but it's it's going to

679
00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:30.800
be out in the next couple of
months. Here cool, and they can

680
00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:34.599
purchase the older books or the I
hate to say the older books the first

681
00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:38.400
books at next to your site community
nexwaves dot community, or you can go

682
00:49:38.440 --> 00:49:42.519
to Amazon and all that. Yeah, okay, it's it's available there.

683
00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:45.199
Excellent. Thank you so much,
spin Asco you, thank you, welcome

684
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:50.119
and thanks everybody for watching and for
listening. This is a show about business

685
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:52.239
and business challenges, a little different
spin today, but hope you see the

686
00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:57.159
parallels. If you've got concerns about
the growth of your company, feel free

687
00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:00.559
to reach out to me on Facebook
or LinkedIn at Winning Business Radio, where

688
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:04.519
you can drop me a note.
One of my many email addresses is Kevin

689
00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:08.000
at Winning Business Radio dot com.
Our company is Winning Incorporated. We're part

690
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:14.400
of Sandler Training. We develop sales
teams into high achievers and sales leaders into

691
00:50:14.440 --> 00:50:16.360
true coaches and mentors. Listen,
We're not right for everybody, but hey,

692
00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:20.639
maybe we should have a conversation.
Thank you to producer and engineer one.

693
00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:22.840
Appreciate you on for another job well
done. Be sure to join us

694
00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:27.320
next week. That's Monday, July
fifteenth. We're gonna do it all over

695
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:30.920
again. Until then, this is
Kevin Hallanan. Thank you. You've been

696
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:36.159
listening to Winning Business Radio with your
host, Kevin Helen. If you missed

697
00:50:36.199 --> 00:50:39.719
any part of this episode, the
podcast is available on Talk for Podcasting and

698
00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:45.840
iHeartRadio. For more information and questions, go to Winning Business Radio dot com

699
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:50.239
or check us out on social media. Tune in again next week and every

700
00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:54.199
Monday at four pm Eastern Time to
listen live to Winning Business Radio on W

701
00:50:54.400 --> 00:51:00.079
four Cyradio W fourcy dot com.
Until then, let's see see where others

702
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:07.960
have failed and win in business with
Kevin Helenan and Winning Business Radio h