March 30, 2026

Craig Brenner - CEO and Co-Tounder of icognio, a technology company built exclusively for law firms

Craig Brenner - CEO and Co-Tounder of icognio, a technology company built exclusively for law firms
iHeartRadio podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Amazon Music podcast player icon Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Pandora podcast player icon Youtube Music podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon Deezer podcast player icon Audible podcast player icon Spreaker podcast player icon Audacy podcast player icon Podcast Addict podcast player icon Castbox podcast player icon JioSaavn podcast player icon TuneIn podcast player icon Castamatic podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon Fountain podcast player icon Goodpods podcast player icon Overcast podcast player icon PlayerFM podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podimo podcast player icon Podurama podcast player icon Podverse podcast player icon Podyssey podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
iHeartRadio podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Amazon Music podcast player icon Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Pandora podcast player icon Youtube Music podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon Deezer podcast player icon Audible podcast player icon Spreaker podcast player icon Audacy podcast player icon Podcast Addict podcast player icon Castbox podcast player icon JioSaavn podcast player icon TuneIn podcast player icon Castamatic podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon Fountain podcast player icon Goodpods podcast player icon Overcast podcast player icon PlayerFM podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podimo podcast player icon Podurama podcast player icon Podverse podcast player icon Podyssey podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon

Craig Brenner - CEO and co-founder of icognio - talks about their legal technology company delivering secure, on-premises AI solutions built exclusively for law firms.
With decades of experience across technology, leadership, and enterprise systems, Craig has helped build and scale multiple companies serving high-trust, high-stakes environments. He founded icognio to address the security, governance, and adoption gaps he saw emerging as law firms rushed to adopt cloud-based AI tools.

Winning Business Radio is broadcast live Mondays at 4PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Winning Business Radio is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Winning Business Radio Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/winning-business-radio--3075598/support.

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.279
The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are

2
00:00:02.279 --> 00:00:03.919
solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not

3
00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:06.879
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We

4
00:00:06.919 --> 00:00:10.119
make no recommendations or endorsements radio show programs, services, or

5
00:00:10.119 --> 00:00:13.039
products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability

6
00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:15.679
explicitor implies shall be extended to W four cy Radio

7
00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:18.480
or it's employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should

8
00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:20.839
be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing

9
00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:22.399
W FOURCY Radio.

10
00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:33.320
Churchill said, those who fail to learn from history are

11
00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:36.759
condemned to repeat it. Kevin Helen n believes that certainly

12
00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:41.280
applies to business. Welcome to Winning Business Radio here at

13
00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:45.719
W four cy Radio. That's W four cy dot com

14
00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:47.840
and now your host, Kevin.

15
00:00:47.560 --> 00:00:54.240
Helen Thanks everybody for joining in again today. I'm Kevin

16
00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:57.719
Hallanan and welcome back to Winning Business TV and radio

17
00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:01.640
on W four cy dot com. We are streaming live

18
00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:05.640
on talkfortv dot com. That's the number four, and of

19
00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:08.359
course we're on Facebook and that's at Winning Business Radio.

20
00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:11.879
And after the live show, we're available wherever you get

21
00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:16.400
your podcast content, YouTube by heart Radio, Spotify, Apple, etc.

22
00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:20.040
The mission of Winning Business radio and TV, as regular

23
00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:23.599
viewers and listeners know, is to offer insights and advice

24
00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:26.560
to help people avoid the mistakes of others, right to

25
00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.439
learn best practices. Those are the how tos, the what tows,

26
00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:33.159
the what not tos. I want you to be challenged

27
00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:36.159
and hopefully to be inspired by the successes of others.

28
00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:40.719
Who are those others consultants, coaches, advisors, authors, founders and

29
00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:44.680
owners and entrepreneurs, people with expertise. But you know, virtually

30
00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:47.079
every successful person I've ever had a chance to has

31
00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:49.959
had some form of failure in their lives and careers.

32
00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:51.719
So while we all have to get our knee skinned

33
00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:54.319
once in a while, I'm driven to keep those scrapes

34
00:01:54.439 --> 00:01:57.319
from needing major surgery. Let's endeavor to learn from history

35
00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:00.239
so we don't repeat it. I've spent the better part

36
00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:03.439
of my career equipping businesses to grow from solopreneurs to

37
00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:05.719
small and medium sized companies all the way up to

38
00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:09.039
the Fortune fifty. I've seen some of those companies win

39
00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:11.680
and to varying degrees, I've seen some fail, and I've

40
00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:14.120
had the opportunity to rub elbows with some of the

41
00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:17.439
highest performing people around and some who probably should have

42
00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:20.599
found other professions. In my own businesses, I've had lots

43
00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:22.639
of success, but some failures too, and I like to

44
00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:24.680
think I've learned a lot. So yeah, you're going to

45
00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:27.000
hear from me, but mostly I want to hear from

46
00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:29.439
I want you to hear from guests. And today my

47
00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:33.520
guest is Craig Brenner, CEO and co founder of Icognio,

48
00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:37.439
a legal technology company built exclusively for law firms. Here's

49
00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:40.879
his bio. Craig Brenner is the CEO and co founder

50
00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:45.479
of Icognio, a legal technology company delivering secure on premise

51
00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:50.120
AI solutions. With decades of experience across technology leadership and

52
00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:53.879
enterprise systems, Craig is helped build and scale multiple companies

53
00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:58.199
serving high trust, high stakes environments. He founded Icognio to

54
00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:02.080
address the security, governance, and adoption gaps he saw emerging

55
00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:05.919
his law firms rushed to adopt cloud based based AI tools.

56
00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:08.599
He's also the owner of Brenner Brothers and has held

57
00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:12.879
senior technology and technology leadership positions in well known technology companies.

58
00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:16.400
He holds a bachelor's in Science and business from Eastern

59
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:19.560
Nazarene College in Quinsey, mass where he's the captain of

60
00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:22.919
the cross country team and an MBA with the concentration

61
00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:25.159
in e Business from the University of Phoenix, and he

62
00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:30.479
completed Worcester Polytechnic Institute's Technology Leadership Program. He resides in

63
00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:33.560
the Nashville, Tennessee metro area. He has three grown kids,

64
00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:37.360
Colin who's twenty seven, Cameron who's twenty five, and Cassidy

65
00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:39.680
who's twenty two. And he's got three grandkids. And don't

66
00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:43.360
forget he's got two Standard Poodles, Mindy Loo and Big

67
00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:47.400
Wayne Craig. Welcome to Winning Business Radio and TV. Thank

68
00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:50.000
you very much, Kevin, My pleasure. Glad you could be here.

69
00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:52.599
So tell us a little bit about your background. You

70
00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:54.879
grew up in Middletown, New York. Tell folks where that

71
00:03:55.039 --> 00:03:56.879
is and what it was like to grow up there.

72
00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:00.800
Yeah, Middletown, New York is out an hour and a

73
00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:05.560
half north of metropolitan New York City in the Catskills region.

74
00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:09.560
It's in an area a lot of people would know

75
00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:13.199
of a Poughkeepsie, New York on the Hudson Valley region.

76
00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:15.439
Yeah, beautiful up there.

77
00:04:16.519 --> 00:04:19.519
It's a country area, So I kind of grew up

78
00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:22.519
in the country even though when people here in New York,

79
00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:23.319
they always think.

80
00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:27.839
Of big buildings, and you don't have that New York

81
00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:32.279
city accent. I don't have that Boston, New Jerseys. My

82
00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:37.160
parents are from Connecticut. So so were you influenced by

83
00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:40.480
parents or mentors when choosing a direction or career, either

84
00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:42.120
you know, directly or indirectly.

85
00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:46.800
Well, I think my biggest mentor was probably my father.

86
00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:53.920
My father was the incurable entrepreneur. I remember him coming

87
00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:57.879
home and always having a new idea about, you know,

88
00:04:57.959 --> 00:04:59.199
what kind of business he could.

89
00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:00.480
Do or how he could make money.

90
00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:01.000
Yeah.

91
00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:04.759
He owned his own milk route when a milk route

92
00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:05.199
was a thing.

93
00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:08.879
Yeah, And he would drag my my one of my

94
00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.480
five older brothers out there and two in the morning

95
00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:16.319
to distribute milk around the neighborhoods.

96
00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:17.079
And so.

97
00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:23.319
He he really gave me that concept that if you

98
00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:26.160
have a great idea, you can go and you can

99
00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:28.560
build it to have confidence in yourself.

100
00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:30.759
And my brothers were also.

101
00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:34.600
All their own business owners as a result of that leadership,

102
00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:40.360
I'd say my dad was my biggest influence. And my mom,

103
00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:43.720
obviously she had six kids, so she showed me how

104
00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:45.519
to manage adversity.

105
00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:50.360
She gets the award for having all boys too, one girl,

106
00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:54.279
one girl. If you guys play sports growing.

107
00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:58.160
Up, yeah, I was on the cross country team and

108
00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:03.199
the track team. My brothers had pretty much all runners

109
00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:07.199
in my family. And then I branched out a little

110
00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:11.480
bit into cycling and triathlon and ultra marathoning.

111
00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:14.480
Oh very cool. I'd like to hear about that another time.

112
00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:17.959
But I when I got turned forty, I wanted to

113
00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:20.279
get in, you know, better shape. I wasn't in terrible shape,

114
00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:22.480
but I wasn't in shape either, And that's when I

115
00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:24.720
found I like to run. I didn't like it before that,

116
00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:27.800
and I've always been active, but you know, I considered

117
00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:30.000
running that's what you do when you get ready for football,

118
00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:31.399
you know, right.

119
00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:32.879
It was painful, you know.

120
00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:37.319
So, Yes, my coach used to say that it's not

121
00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:39.120
fun to run. It's fun to have run.

122
00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:40.680
That's true. That's true.

123
00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:42.759
You feel great and it's fun to win too when

124
00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:46.759
you do win. So what made you choose Eastern Nazarene.

125
00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:48.839
I know that campus, really small campus. I know it

126
00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:49.879
well down in Quincy.

127
00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:50.759
Yeah.

128
00:06:51.079 --> 00:06:55.399
Eastern Nazarene College, which was later changed to Eastern College,

129
00:06:57.319 --> 00:06:59.920
was a part of the Nazarene Church, extension of the

130
00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:03.839
Nazrine Church. They have colleges all over the country and

131
00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:07.800
Quincy was just one of their campuses. My two boys

132
00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:12.519
went to Treveca in the Nashville region, which is how

133
00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:17.079
I ended up the Nashville region visited them. So Treveca

134
00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:19.199
is another one of the Nazarene college You have Point

135
00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:23.240
Loma out in California, so they have quite an interesting

136
00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:27.319
college network related to and associated with the Church of

137
00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:32.120
the Nazarene International. But I think in the last few

138
00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:34.920
years the Quincy campus has closed down.

139
00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:37.959
Yeah, it has, unfortunately, but really good education. I know

140
00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:39.600
a bunch of kids that have gone there. My kids

141
00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:42.240
went to a Christian school right in Weymouth and saw

142
00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:43.680
a lot of their front not a lot, but a

143
00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:45.600
number of their friends went there. And I know adults

144
00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:47.199
that have gone there. Had a really good friend got

145
00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:52.800
his as an adult, got his construction certificate, four year degree,

146
00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:55.680
you know, his construction degree and certificate there. So really

147
00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:58.600
good school. And then when and why did you decide

148
00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:00.560
to get an MBA.

149
00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:05.879
I decided to get an MBA because I realized that

150
00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:09.199
there was more I wanted to learn about business. There

151
00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:11.319
were weaknesses. You know, we all have our strengths and

152
00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:13.839
our weaknesses. I had some weak areas that I wanted

153
00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:17.720
to shore up when relating to business, some on the

154
00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:20.800
financial side, some on the you know, accounting side, some

155
00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:22.160
on the strategy side, some.

156
00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:24.759
On the leadership side.

157
00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:27.240
And so I thought that that was a good way

158
00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:29.879
for me to, you know, just go go one level

159
00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:34.279
deeper in terms of how businesses operate, how they run,

160
00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:38.240
what's important and and go ahead and get that. So

161
00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:41.399
that's why I went from from my MBA. I did

162
00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:48.200
it remote remotely through university. And some people might say, oh, well,

163
00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:51.080
you know, you weren't really on a campus, But getting

164
00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:54.519
your MBA remotely has its own set of challenges, and

165
00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:58.720
you have to use technology. Technology is your conduit kind

166
00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:03.720
of to the professor, and so it brings in a

167
00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:08.960
whole different sense of community because you're interacting with students

168
00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:11.159
from all over the country and in some cases.

169
00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:11.679
All over the world.

170
00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:14.840
I can imagine, yeah, which you know you sometimes do

171
00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:18.799
on certain local campuses, but you know, they're all distributed,

172
00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:24.279
and the concept of teamwork in an online environment changes

173
00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.519
and becomes much more important because that's your lifeline too

174
00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:33.159
to learning. So University Phoenix. They have a nice teamwork program.

175
00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:37.279
They break the classes up into teams, project teams, and

176
00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:40.679
you know, you have some strong team members and you

177
00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:43.679
know you kind of follow them, and then you have

178
00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:46.480
some weak team members and you kind of bring them along.

179
00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:51.759
All these business all these are business concepts, you know. Yeah,

180
00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:54.960
So I did enjoy that program. It was very it

181
00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:55.759
was very good for me.

182
00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:01.480
What was your takeaway from wp i's Techology Leadership Program.

183
00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:06.960
Well, the WPI Technology Leadership Program was the name is

184
00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:11.600
kind of and I'll say deceiving, but doesn't hit the mark.

185
00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:18.240
The WPI Leadership Training Program is a people management program

186
00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:25.399
which is focused on leading technology leaders. So how to

187
00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:29.639
lead those groups that are in the technology realm as

188
00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:35.720
a CIO or a CTO or even a CEO, and

189
00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:39.360
how to keep motivation, how to keep innovation moving, and

190
00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:42.879
how to incent and how to know how to lead.

191
00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:47.519
So it was an outstanding program. It was right on

192
00:10:47.559 --> 00:10:50.360
the campus there now in Worster. I think it was

193
00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:54.600
a remote campus. I forget the exact town, but beautiful campus.

194
00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:59.039
I was in that class, rather small cohort of about

195
00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:04.919
twenty folks, but all pretty high performing technology leaders in

196
00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:10.399
their own companies, and so they really pushed you. I

197
00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:12.480
mean that's what I that's what I liked about it. Yeah,

198
00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:14.440
there were moments where you were kind.

199
00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:17.759
Of, wow, this is a this is a push.

200
00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:21.240
You know, they'd give you some high pressure team assignments

201
00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:24.360
that were competitive, and that was kind of a core

202
00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:28.559
of that curriculum was break up into teams, solve this problem,

203
00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.480
come back and tell all these other really smart people

204
00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:34.759
how you're going to solve it and do it better

205
00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:38.120
than them. So you know, that's the pressure cooker that

206
00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:42.559
is innovation. That's how innovation happens.

207
00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:46.080
Love to hear that, all right, take us through. You know,

208
00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:47.279
I don't want to spend a lot of time, but

209
00:11:47.320 --> 00:11:48.559
I want to I want to get a sense. I

210
00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:50.720
always like audiences to get the sense of kind of

211
00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:53.759
how you came up. So just like a quick lesson

212
00:11:53.799 --> 00:11:56.879
from each of these channel sales manager at NTT Data

213
00:11:58.279 --> 00:11:59.519
Sure I was.

214
00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:02.559
I was selling dial up back in the day. Not

215
00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:07.759
to roll back the film that far. I realized that,

216
00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:12.480
you know, high speed internet access was something that was

217
00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:18.399
needed by businesses, and so NTT acquired a company I

218
00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:20.840
worked for called Verio in downtown Boston.

219
00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:23.600
I was a channel manager there.

220
00:12:23.799 --> 00:12:28.679
I later rolled that program out to NFL cities twelve

221
00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:31.759
cities in the United States other channel managers, and it

222
00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.240
was very successful. I enjoyed selling, you know, I really

223
00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:36.399
enjoyed the process of some.

224
00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:37.799
It's the dark side.

225
00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:41.879
Well, you know, selling, selling is not the dark side. No,

226
00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:45.679
there's a certain feeling you only get when you close business.

227
00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:48.960
And you know, that's right, that's right, that's really great feeling.

228
00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:50.279
That's a great feeling.

229
00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:53.440
So that's how I got interested in really and deep

230
00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:59.039
into technology. And I just have an affinity for it.

231
00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:03.679
I always was skilled out in school. So I went

232
00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:06.120
on to work for a few different startups and then

233
00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:09.639
I went on to found a few different startups, some

234
00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:12.159
which made it and some which did not.

235
00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:14.240
That's the game. That is the game.

236
00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:18.879
Yeah, And so it is for sting when you start

237
00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:21.360
something and you have a passion for something and it

238
00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:24.440
doesn't quite go the way you had planned. But I

239
00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:27.360
would say that you know, you've heard this before many

240
00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:30.559
people have. You really do learn more from your failures

241
00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:31.960
than you do from your successes.

242
00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:34.000
That's a fact, yep, you know.

243
00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:36.960
And you have to have some scars, you have to

244
00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.120
be willing to take risks a lot of people are

245
00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:43.519
not that kind of a personality. My personality is is

246
00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:47.639
that I'm not afraid to take the risks. So some

247
00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:50.320
of them, some of the startups I got funded by

248
00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:51.000
other folks.

249
00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:52.559
Some of the.

250
00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:59.159
Startups I fund funded myself. And these were all technology startups,

251
00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:04.399
and some of them were funded by venture capitalists and

252
00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:08.360
were already kind of in motion. And one of those

253
00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:12.919
was Kiva Systems, which was a robotics company. Uh started

254
00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:17.519
out in Wooburn and later relocated to North Redding. I

255
00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:21.799
was there seven years. We were acquired by Amazon. And

256
00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:25.240
that's another great feeling when you are even just a

257
00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:29.440
part of a team that succeeds and gets acquired.

258
00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:30.080
By a larger company.

259
00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:33.120
Yeah, it's a it's a one of a kind feeling

260
00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:36.960
that it's the high five moment. You know, we did it,

261
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:40.720
We achieved our goal, We returned our investment to our

262
00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:44.679
investors and then some and uh, you know that that

263
00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:46.440
it's addicting.

264
00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:50.399
I like winning, but I particularly like winning financially. So

265
00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:52.000
that's a good one. All Right, We're going to take

266
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:54.360
our first break right here, Craig, everybody, We'll be back

267
00:14:54.360 --> 00:15:00.159
with Craig Brenner in just about one minute.

268
00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:04.879
You're listening to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helene on

269
00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:09.120
W four CY Radio. That's W four cy dot com.

270
00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:11.960
Don't go away. More helpful information is coming right up

271
00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:14.360
right here on Winning Business Radio.

272
00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:21.159
Best in Wealth Management is family owned for two generations.

273
00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:24.679
They take pride in thoughtful financial planning and wealth management

274
00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:27.919
with a family feel for your closely held family business.

275
00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.960
Best in Wealth Management focuses on deep planning, integrating your

276
00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:35.120
business planning with personal They will help put your money

277
00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:38.639
to work and your mind at ease. Go to Bestinwealthmanagement

278
00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:40.120
dot com for more information.

279
00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:42.559
Advisory service is offered through.

280
00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:44.240
Commonwealth Financial Network, a.

281
00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:45.679
Registered investment advisor.

282
00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:49.399
Join the Best Family and let our family advise your family.

283
00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:53.960
That's Bestinwealthmanagement dot com for your complementary initial consultation.

284
00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:00.240
Have you ever dreamt of being on the radio, Well,

285
00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:02.759
now is your chance. Be a radio show guest on

286
00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:05.879
the number one ranked internet radio station and promote you

287
00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:09.399
and your business for free. Yes you heard it, Free

288
00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:13.279
business advertising right here on W four cy dot com.

289
00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:17.240
Call five six one five zero six four zero three

290
00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:19.639
to one now to get booked on one of our shows.

291
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.639
That's five six one five zero six.

292
00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:23.840
Four zero three one.

293
00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:26.360
Get your free advertising now.

294
00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:33.480
And now back to Winning Business Radio with Kevin helenan

295
00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:37.480
presenting exciting topics and expert guests with one goal in

296
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:41.080
mind to help you succeed in business. Here once again

297
00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:43.320
is Kevin Helene.

298
00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:52.159
We are back with Craig brann oer CEO and co

299
00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:56.919
founder of Icognio. So then you got into some tech,

300
00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:01.919
some let's see some fractional CIO work, and some consulting work.

301
00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:02.519
Talk about that.

302
00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:07.359
Yeah, I wanted to try my hand at consulting. I

303
00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:10.960
had done some government consulting. I was outsourced part time

304
00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:16.960
CIO for the city of Watertown, Massachusetts. I had consulted

305
00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:22.920
for some K through twelve school districts, including Plymouth and

306
00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:30.279
also Shrewsbury. So in the City of Shrewsbury and also

307
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:32.240
Watertown K through twelve.

308
00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:33.640
So I enjoyed.

309
00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:37.519
I enjoyed the the low hanging fruit of being able

310
00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:41.680
to go in to, let's say, something that wasn't necessarily

311
00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:48.400
a company which ran very efficiently and make improvements that were,

312
00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:52.839
you know, not really able to be observed by those individuals.

313
00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:56.160
And then that lead me into led me into consulting

314
00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:00.799
for businesses. One of my consulting opportunity unities with was

315
00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:06.279
with a large sign company, National Sign Company, and on another.

316
00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:09.119
One was with s VP Worldwide.

317
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:13.680
Which was Singer Sewing Machines with their Internet of Things

318
00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:17.319
products have product line sewing machines that are that are

319
00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:20.480
networked and people can download designs. And I was a

320
00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:23.960
part of that project and during the during the COVID,

321
00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:27.599
so as you can imagine, a lot of people had

322
00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:30.200
time and they were doing a lot of sewing during COVID,

323
00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:34.960
So that was a very fast moving type opportunity. And

324
00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:38.799
so I did enjoy the consulting and also that you know,

325
00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:42.559
there are some positives and doing technology consulting and there

326
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.400
are some negatives. The positive is, you know, you kind

327
00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:48.640
of come in with a certain agenda to make a

328
00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:52.920
make a sweeping improvement or to innovate something that they

329
00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:56.799
have not noticed and give them advice. The downside is

330
00:18:56.839 --> 00:19:01.480
you're not really a member of the team and it's

331
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:04.799
very easy for people to create opinions about your performance,

332
00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:09.279
whether it be he's aweso more, he's really doing what

333
00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:12.359
we're paying on that much to do. You know, that

334
00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:15.880
was the downside of consulting, But everything has its goods.

335
00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:19.000
And bads, But I did enjoy the process of it.

336
00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:19.920
All right.

337
00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:22.920
So in twenty twenty one, you started Brenner Brothers. I

338
00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:24.880
don't know a whole lot about that. Tell us what

339
00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:27.759
Brenner Brothers is or was sounds like it.

340
00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:29.640
Brenner Brothers is.

341
00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:35.000
It's still an entity, but it was a industrial food

342
00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:40.200
service for large corporations to the customers in Tennessee where

343
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:44.279
General Motors and Ultium Batteries Ultium Cells, which is a

344
00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:50.400
large battery manufacturer owned by General Motors, and my brother

345
00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:54.200
and I started that and he is continuing it in

346
00:19:54.240 --> 00:20:00.640
the South Carolina area servicing large data center construction projects.

347
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:01.160
Cool.

348
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:05.720
Yeah, everybody's got to eat. That's pretty dependable, all right.

349
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:08.160
And then, of course, in January of last year, you

350
00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:12.640
founded Icognio. So first tell us the why behind the

351
00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.119
what you know, what did you see, and why did

352
00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:17.640
you decide to Again, there's the risk. I'm sure there

353
00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:21.720
was money that you invested, et cetera. Nothing's free. Take

354
00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:22.880
us through that story.

355
00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:28.759
The way the company was originally envisioned was not what

356
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:29.480
it is today.

357
00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:32.920
That that's a common theme in technology.

358
00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:36.000
You pivot as the market shows you what's actually going

359
00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:40.519
on and Originally we were shooting for a consumer product

360
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:47.720
to protect privacy of AI users. But then we you know,

361
00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:51.000
over time, we started to niche down as we saw

362
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:56.240
the market opportunity growing in certain areas, and that's how

363
00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:58.720
we ended up kind of, you know, in the legal

364
00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:04.680
space because in business and in sports and everything else,

365
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:08.200
you have to figure out where the puck is going right,

366
00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:13.440
and you have to go there before others go there.

367
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:15.680
You don't want to go there too.

368
00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:18.680
Early because no one will have interest you just wait

369
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:20.880
too early. But you don't want to also be too

370
00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:24.920
late and come in behind. So that was kind of

371
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:27.880
a lot of our early discussions. We started development in

372
00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:31.720
fall of twenty twenty four and then throughout all of

373
00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:35.279
twenty twenty five we continued our development and with a

374
00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:37.599
focus on AI security.

375
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:40.000
How did you realize there was a need there?

376
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:46.519
Yes, the AI security space is just a little baby

377
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:51.279
hasn't even walked yet, and AI is sort of like

378
00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:55.519
the wild West in a lot of ways. Absolutely many

379
00:21:55.559 --> 00:21:59.519
of the listeners might know. And it's the wild West

380
00:21:59.559 --> 00:22:03.960
because it's a petri dish of technology due to the

381
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:09.640
speed rapid innovation that's taking place and that desire to

382
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:13.400
you know, have something first and get something out, and

383
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:18.640
the pressure that companies are under due to large sums

384
00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:24.119
of investment in their companies to innovate, to release and

385
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.680
you know, sort of the term damn the torpedoes comes

386
00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:33.240
to mind. It may not be completely safe, but we

387
00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:36.720
have to do it, you know, And so that was

388
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:40.319
a that was a lot of our vision was that we.

389
00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:42.319
We saw whether Puck was going and.

390
00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:46.200
It was a little bit scary because we thought this

391
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:49.559
is probably going to go wrong in a lot of

392
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:50.359
different ways.

393
00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:52.599
But how is it going to go wrong? I'm not

394
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:54.880
talking about end of world kind of.

395
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:59.359
Scenarios, right, not not no, no, uh what I just

396
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:04.519
lou the reference the name of the the Terminator series.

397
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:06.599
Anyway, keep going right.

398
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:10.519
Not end of world go wrong, but go wrong for companies,

399
00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:20.079
go wrong for businesses. Become an unsolvable challenge for security

400
00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:23.799
officers in companies and they, you know, they have to

401
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:27.359
do what the CEO says, uh, that's their job to

402
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:31.039
follow the orders. But they're also under pressure to secure

403
00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:36.880
their data, right, that's their other job. Their one job

404
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:40.759
is innovate and follow instructions from the leadership of the company,

405
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:44.119
from the board, but their primary job is to secure

406
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:48.359
the data and so they you know, these security folks

407
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:50.920
are in a little bit of a jam in a

408
00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:54.759
lot of ways. They probably would admit it that AI

409
00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:58.759
can be. AI is like fire. It can be your

410
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:01.200
best friend or can be your worst enemy.

411
00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:02.279
That's a good reference.

412
00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:05.240
Yeah, so, and fire.

413
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:08.720
Is a good thing. You have to control it. And

414
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:12.440
so that's where we sit. We sit in that control space,

415
00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:18.480
ahead of the competition and deploying in such a fashion

416
00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:22.599
that they do not. And that is our core value

417
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.440
proposition is that we're really not like any of the competitors.

418
00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:31.319
We are a the most secure AI solution for law.

419
00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:34.160
If somebody read a description, they'd say, wow, they're not

420
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:37.039
cloud based. But there's a very important reason for that.

421
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:39.799
And what you've created as an appliance, right, an on

422
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:41.680
premise appliance. So tell us about that.

423
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:44.359
The reason for our.

424
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:47.279
Founding team, our founding team and myself we have a

425
00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:53.680
lot of history with infrastructure hardware and managing infrastructure hardware.

426
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:58.240
And you know, the easiest way I can explain it

427
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:00.599
to anyone who may meet the in tech knowledge or

428
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:05.279
not being technology, they probably know what a firewall is, right,

429
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:07.680
So you may have a firewall in your house.

430
00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:08.960
You probably do.

431
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:13.119
Some people have firewalls in their house, but companies certainly

432
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:16.920
have firewalls to protect their data. That firewall does not

433
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:21.599
live in the cloud. There's a reason for that. It

434
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:25.759
is a device because that is the best way to

435
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:26.559
secure the.

436
00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:27.920
Data behind it.

437
00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.079
So that's basically the approach that we take to our

438
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:36.559
solution is we take you know, best known practices of

439
00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:42.319
securing devices, and then we build an AI platform on

440
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:46.119
top of that and we make it one hundred percent

441
00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:51.680
secure and one percent reliable, and it goes inside the

442
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:55.119
customer's network. It doesn't live in the cloud. And that's

443
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:58.240
why firewalls don't live in the cloud. That is our

444
00:25:58.279 --> 00:25:59.000
business model.

445
00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:04.119
And so this is for the for law firms. Uh,

446
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.599
law firms have a I don't know if it's regulatory.

447
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:09.480
I don't think it's regulatory, but they certainly have an

448
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:14.559
obligation to keep everything secure, and in particular, you know,

449
00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:18.039
they could be not just at risk of you know,

450
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:21.920
exposing customer data, but I expose competitive data too, right.

451
00:26:23.079 --> 00:26:26.240
So yeah, you know, we've done a lot of interviews

452
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:29.279
with law firms, but you know, our assumption was that

453
00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:34.079
the risk versus reward benefit of using AI in certain

454
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:39.559
spaces such as law is it's a slippery slope because

455
00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:43.079
you can get a lot of efficiencies from using AI

456
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:46.799
in the law environment, but then at the same time,

457
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:52.319
controlling what the end user actually does with AI is

458
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:58.000
not so simple, so you get into internal regulatory or

459
00:26:58.440 --> 00:26:59.480
policy creation.

460
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:00.200
Right.

461
00:27:01.640 --> 00:27:07.480
The American Bar Association has toyed with AI standards for law,

462
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:09.680
but they have not done that yet.

463
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:11.920
Yeah, it's not it's not easy, but it's it's a

464
00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:12.400
great idea.

465
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:18.240
Well, we're counting on it. In fact, we're positive that

466
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:22.319
it will happen. It's just a matter of time going

467
00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:24.400
by where more and more events occur.

468
00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:28.599
There are many events that have already occurred, so.

469
00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:32.599
You know we're going to be able to guarantee compliance

470
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:35.960
at a much higher level. I don't want to get

471
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:42.279
too geek, even if you allow. Companies like Anthropic, who

472
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:46.200
were really focusing on the slanting a certain products set

473
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:53.119
towards law, have since decreased their bar for security because

474
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:56.440
they were getting sued a lot. And so even the

475
00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:59.799
AI companies, I don't want to say they don't really

476
00:27:59.880 --> 00:28:03.160
know how it works, because that's not a right statement.

477
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:07.680
The AI companies don't really know what mistakes it will make.

478
00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:10.920
Right, So they're.

479
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:16.519
Cautious because AI does things that are unpredictable by its nature,

480
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:20.839
and that has to do with the DNA of how

481
00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:25.000
an AI platform is built and how it operates. It

482
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:30.880
can be unpredictable. Unpredictable and law do not go together.

483
00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:35.559
It makes a lot of sense. So I can imagine

484
00:28:35.559 --> 00:28:42.920
that managing partners or boards are very leary.

485
00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:45.000
Yeah, you have a few different camps.

486
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:49.839
You have your old school law firms who are hesitant

487
00:28:49.880 --> 00:28:54.640
to get off the dime with AI because AI has

488
00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:59.240
the potential to decrease billings, and billings is what their

489
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:00.240
companies are built.

490
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:02.480
Don Okay, So that's interesting.

491
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:06.160
Yeah, you know, so they're they're at the you're talking

492
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:07.039
at the board level.

493
00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:08.599
So you're talking at at.

494
00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:09.720
The board at the board level.

495
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:15.480
Now, they also have efficiencies which can be gained, which

496
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:19.839
is maybe X number of hours are saved per month

497
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:25.599
per uh per paralegal or or per junior attorney or

498
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:29.279
per attorney. I would I would say that the greatest

499
00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:32.960
savings is at the lower end because AI is better

500
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:34.359
at repetitive tasks.

501
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:37.319
Well, the argument I think I would think should be Okay,

502
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.200
Now they have more capacity for billible hours.

503
00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:45.240
That's correct. That that's another one of the upsides.

504
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:47.920
So you see, it's this slippery slope of what are

505
00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:50.400
the benefits and what are the what are the downsides

506
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:54.640
of fully adopting AI. Now there's a there's another whole

507
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:59.559
class of law firms that's evolving, which are AI first

508
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:03.319
law firm Those are the guys that are going to

509
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:04.519
shake the Apple card up.

510
00:30:05.480 --> 00:30:07.920
What would you say that legal zoom was maybe a

511
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:09.640
precursor to something like that.

512
00:30:10.599 --> 00:30:14.599
Now this would be a little bit different. Legal legal

513
00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:16.720
Zoom is an automation platform.

514
00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:18.119
I think it's a good product.

515
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.839
It's a it's an automation platform. What we're talking about

516
00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:28.279
is real law, not not just templates. We're talking about litigation. Litigation.

517
00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:33.960
Uh And basically you have AI firms that are now

518
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:39.640
evolving and they're getting Interestingly, they're getting VC funding. So

519
00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:44.119
you have law firms getting VC funding. That's something new.

520
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:44.799
I've never heard that.

521
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:49.440
Yeah, you have AI first law firms getting VC funding

522
00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:55.119
to grow rapidly and the concept there is human in

523
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:59.680
the middle. Right, So AI does a larger percentage of

524
00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:03.160
the world the law work than they would in a

525
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.519
traditional law firm. Maybe AI does sixty or seventy or

526
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:11.559
eighty percent of the work by design, the law firm.

527
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:12.279
Is built that way.

528
00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:17.200
That's where you get some serious time savings, right, and

529
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:20.200
then you have the human in the loop, where the

530
00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:25.960
human is really facilitating the law process. It's very similar

531
00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:30.400
to what's happening with AI and software development. Your lower

532
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:34.000
end people are now becoming sort of architects in a way.

533
00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:38.759
Here's the same concept that in law that AI first

534
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:43.599
law firm, the lawyer is more of a facilitator, an

535
00:31:43.720 --> 00:31:47.279
architect of the process. They're not doing the whole process,

536
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:50.920
they're checking the process. So there's a huge savings there

537
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:53.160
for the customer AI.

538
00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:56.200
AI can't go to court, they can't do a mediation,

539
00:31:56.440 --> 00:32:00.519
AI can't do a deposition. I suppose it possible, but

540
00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:02.480
you still need that traffic cop you still need that

541
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:04.799
legality right right.

542
00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:10.119
Yes, And you would think that law firms are cautious

543
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:13.640
about that, but you would be completely wrong.

544
00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:14.960
Because that's what I went there.

545
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:18.759
There are I don't want to say hundreds, that's probably

546
00:32:18.759 --> 00:32:22.279
an overstatement. There are more than fifty cases that we're

547
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:28.799
aware of where law firms have submitted and brought into

548
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:36.240
court false AI generated content, some of them knowingly, some

549
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:40.319
of them by a mistake. So it's a very uh

550
00:32:41.559 --> 00:32:44.240
it's like the wild West for law is. If you're

551
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:47.640
going to use AI, you better have your saddle tight.

552
00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:52.119
All right, that's a good time to take a break.

553
00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:54.599
We'll take our second commercial right here. We'll be right

554
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:56.880
back in about a minute with Craig Brenner.

555
00:32:57.559 --> 00:33:01.200
Thank you.

556
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:05.160
You're listening to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helene on

557
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:09.400
W four CY Radio. That's W four cy dot com.

558
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:12.240
Don't go away. More helpful information is coming right up

559
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:14.640
right here on Winning Business Radio.

560
00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:21.440
Best in Wealth Management is family owned for two generations.

561
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:24.960
They take pride in thoughtful financial planning and wealth management

562
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:28.200
with a family feel for your closely held family business.

563
00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:32.279
Best in Wealth Management focuses on deep planning. Integrating your

564
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:35.400
business planning with personal tay will help put your money

565
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:38.920
to work and your mind at ease. Go to Bestinwealthmanagement

566
00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:40.440
dot com for more information.

567
00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:42.839
Advisory service is offered through.

568
00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:47.039
Commonwealth Financial Network, a registered investment advisor. Join the best

569
00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:51.599
family and let our family advise your family. That's Bestinwealthmanagement

570
00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:54.240
dot com for your complementary initial consultation.

571
00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:59.680
The YP dot com website is your local search engine.

572
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:01.960
You're looking for a good restaurant, it can help you

573
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:05.039
find the right one nearby with ratings and reviews. Or

574
00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:07.119
if your car breaks down, you can use the YP

575
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:09.960
app to find the closest repair shop. Or maybe you're

576
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:12.119
just looking for something to do on a Friday night.

577
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:14.719
While it has great local coupons for all sorts of

578
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:17.519
things in your area, no matter what, when or where.

579
00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:20.480
If you're looking for something, YP Local Search can help

580
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:22.480
you find it. So go to yp dot com or

581
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:25.440
download the app to search local, to find local and

582
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:26.119
save local.

583
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:33.480
And now back to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helen

584
00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:37.480
in presenting exciting topics and expert guests with one goal

585
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:40.920
in mind to help you succeed in business. Here once

586
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:42.480
again is Kevin Helene.

587
00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:52.840
We're back with Craig Brenner, CEO and co founder of

588
00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:57.480
i Cognio. What makes your solution and you touched on

589
00:34:57.519 --> 00:34:59.679
that a little bit, but this is an opportunity to

590
00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:03.159
really the case what makes your solution better than other

591
00:35:03.239 --> 00:35:04.360
legal ais.

592
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:11.679
The majority of legle ais are really not legal ais.

593
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:17.119
They are yet they are a large language model an

594
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:20.000
l l M. Whether it be anthropic or whether it

595
00:35:20.039 --> 00:35:25.119
be chat, GPT. And then like many products that people

596
00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:28.920
are familiar with that have AI embedded into them, the AI,

597
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:33.440
you know, is really software around the large language model.

598
00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:40.599
We're completely different. It's basically a wrapper around regular AI.

599
00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:44.360
Our platform is built from the ground up just for law.

600
00:35:45.159 --> 00:35:48.559
It's a it's a major differentiator. Everything that's in our

601
00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:52.440
in our product is built with law in mind. And

602
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:56.559
that that comes down to safety, That comes down to accuracy,

603
00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:01.559
that comes down to auditability, that comes down to reporting engines,

604
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:05.880
you know, built for law. So everything in our product

605
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:09.320
is built from the ground up for law. It's purpose built.

606
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:13.320
That's the major differentiator. And obviously the second one is

607
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:19.239
the most important. The security component is it lives inside

608
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:24.719
the customer's network. Data never their their proprietary data never

609
00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:26.000
leaves their network.

610
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:27.960
You know, why would it?

611
00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:31.079
Why would why would any company just think about what

612
00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:36.280
I'm saying here, Why would any company allow their proprietary data,

613
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:38.239
whether it be a customer name, whether it be a

614
00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:43.679
case description, and put that out into the cloud, right

615
00:36:44.199 --> 00:36:46.280
and take a chance that it's going.

616
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:48.800
To leak, right? They wouldn't.

617
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:53.760
Why would they count on information coming back? So here's

618
00:36:53.880 --> 00:37:00.679
number three, information coming back from AI that is accurate, right,

619
00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:05.920
and hallucinations are probably the most talked about a problem

620
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:10.960
in law having to do with AI. AI hallucinates. What

621
00:37:11.079 --> 00:37:11.920
is a hallucination?

622
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:13.400
For people that are less.

623
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:17.119
Technical out there, a hallucination is imagine you're going down

624
00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:21.079
a highway and the way AI works is it puts

625
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:24.800
words together. That's how it gives you your response. It

626
00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:29.079
looks for the next logical word. When it can't find

627
00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:31.960
the next logical word, it does what it's designed to do.

628
00:37:32.599 --> 00:37:37.400
And this process is called probabilistic guessing. It guesses at

629
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:43.039
the most probable exit on the highway right the next word.

630
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:46.400
If it can't find it, it goes anyway right, it'll

631
00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:48.960
take it. And you know on the highway when you

632
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:51.559
get off the wrong exit, now you've got to make

633
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:55.840
many turns and take many false turns to get back

634
00:37:55.880 --> 00:37:59.880
on track. That is what a hallucination is for the

635
00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:03.679
common person to understand. It makes things up because it

636
00:38:03.719 --> 00:38:08.079
gets lost in the process. And the larger the models get,

637
00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:12.079
this is the important point. The larger the models get,

638
00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:16.440
the worse that problem gets, because now instead of five

639
00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:20.000
exits off the highway, you have five thousand exits off

640
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:23.239
the highway to choose from. So while it might seem

641
00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:28.320
that AI can get smarter modeled, as the models grow,

642
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:35.840
the traffic gets more complicated. So we solve that. I

643
00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:38.199
believe we're the only company who actually has a solution

644
00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:40.480
to that problem of hallucination.

645
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:42.920
That's a patent that we have.

646
00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:45.519
Nice, Now, is it a fair question? And if you

647
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:49.119
can't answer this in five minutes, don't how did you

648
00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:49.480
do that?

649
00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:57.000
So I have to be careful what I said that

650
00:38:57.360 --> 00:38:57.920
on that one.

651
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:04.320
Let's let me describe it from a non technical perspective. Good, right, So, well,

652
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:08.320
everyone's familiar with how a lie detector works. So you

653
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:11.159
have someone who's accused of something and you know, they

654
00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:15.719
want want to maybe eliminate them as a as a suspect,

655
00:39:16.199 --> 00:39:18.480
or they want to say, oh, well, this person's lying.

656
00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:22.000
You know, this may not be completely accurate, right, A

657
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:26.039
lie detector is not always completely accurate, but we have

658
00:39:26.119 --> 00:39:30.519
a better chance of knowing if the person's discepted. Right,

659
00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:35.880
that's exactly what we build. That's exactly exactly what we build.

660
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:39.880
So could you say one hundred percent? You can't say

661
00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:43.039
one hundred percent with a lie detector. The way a

662
00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:48.239
lie detector works is that it looks for patterns in

663
00:39:48.280 --> 00:39:53.159
the response. Right, That's exactly what we do. That's exactly

664
00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:56.599
what our technology does. There are certain patterns that an

665
00:39:56.639 --> 00:40:00.960
honest response from AI have, and there are certain patterns

666
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:05.760
that a hallucination had. In other words, something doesn't go

667
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:10.159
with the question. So when you compare the question or

668
00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:12.719
the prompt in this case for those who use AI,

669
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:17.599
you compare prompt to the response like a lie detector

670
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:22.719
compares the question to the body signals, you can see

671
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:25.000
deception or you can sense it.

672
00:40:25.960 --> 00:40:28.320
That's exactly what we've built before.

673
00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:30.119
It provides unanswered response.

674
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:32.719
Yes, accuracy response.

675
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:37.599
An accuracy response is probably the biggest flaw.

676
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:38.199
That AI has.

677
00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:43.639
Now, who's on your team? I mean this seems like

678
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:46.119
really forward thinking stuff. And I'm not saying that to

679
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:48.639
you know, stroke you or anything like that. I'm just

680
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:51.920
saying that it just does really seem advanced. Who are

681
00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:54.360
the folks on your team? Not by name, but by

682
00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:56.679
background that made this possible?

683
00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:01.840
Sure, you know, like myself, the team members are folks

684
00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:04.679
that have worked together for and we have many years

685
00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:07.679
of experience. You know, we're kind of like I like

686
00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:09.440
to make the joke that we're the you know, we're

687
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:12.440
the non startup group. You know, the twenty two year

688
00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:15.039
old kid who works one hundred hours a week and

689
00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:19.239
never sleeps. We have none of those. We sleep because

690
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:21.920
we know sleep's important. With a twenty two year old kid,

691
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:25.119
he doesn't know yet got to sleep. But what we

692
00:41:25.159 --> 00:41:27.880
do have is we have that pedigree and we have

693
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:31.960
it in the areas of hardware development and management, which

694
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:34.760
is our core. We have it in the area of

695
00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:38.559
scaling with our Chief Scaling Advisor, so we have a CTO,

696
00:41:38.840 --> 00:41:42.760
we have a CSO, a chief scaling advisor. Obviously, we

697
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.400
have a great finance person out of Canada.

698
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:49.480
He joined the team. He's magnificent. He really knows his stuff.

699
00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:53.599
And then we have a chief scientist who is working

700
00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:57.679
on you know, things that I can't talk about or

701
00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:00.400
he'll get upset with me, but he's work working on

702
00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:04.199
some cool stuff. We call him Uncle Fester because he's

703
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:07.199
good at testing and experimenting. You have to have one

704
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.000
of those on your team if you're going to innovate.

705
00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:11.000
She's great. And then we.

706
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:14.320
Also have our Chief Marketing Officer and if you want

707
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:16.159
to visit the website you can see some of his

708
00:42:16.280 --> 00:42:19.519
great great vision for our messaging and our marketing.

709
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:23.519
And so that's the team. We have an experienced team.

710
00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:28.880
We also have a new member of the team. She's

711
00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:31.119
out of college.

712
00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:33.280
She is out of college and she was actually a

713
00:42:33.320 --> 00:42:36.280
founder of her own AI legal company. And we went

714
00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:38.840
and found her and she just said, she loves what

715
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:41.039
we're doing. She gets the problem, she wants to solve

716
00:42:41.079 --> 00:42:43.599
the problem. Had nothing to do with her other company.

717
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:47.360
She just thought, your guys are solving it properly, and

718
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:47.880
I want.

719
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:48.519
To be a part of that.

720
00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:51.599
So I guess you know, we've got six people now

721
00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:54.079
on the core founding team.

722
00:42:53.960 --> 00:42:58.400
Remote pardon me disparate, Yes, we are.

723
00:42:58.320 --> 00:42:59.800
One hundred percent remote company.

724
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:00.480
Yeah.

725
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:04.039
And you know, I say, if some investor wants to

726
00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:07.400
make us have an office, you know, it's if they

727
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:09.639
have a good reason to have an office, we'll have

728
00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:12.719
an office. But right now we don't see good reason

729
00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:14.880
to have an office. We'd rather save money and be efficient.

730
00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:18.519
Yeah, our team for most well, same, What would you

731
00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:21.519
say is a speed of adoption here of the of

732
00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:23.800
law firms? And by the way, this is commercially.

733
00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:26.440
Available, correct, Yes, it's available.

734
00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:30.719
Yep, that was my understanding. Speed of adoption is it

735
00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:33.719
getting better. Is it a hard uphill slog to get

736
00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:36.119
law firms to adopt this? Is there a hunger and

737
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:36.559
a need?

738
00:43:38.519 --> 00:43:42.679
Well, the rate of adoption in general in this market

739
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:48.880
has fluctuated, and the reason is fluctuated has nothing really

740
00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:52.800
to do with technology. It's fluctuated having to do with

741
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:59.519
organizational change. Right. So certain organizations are very entrenched in

742
00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:04.920
their current legal processes like you do have other large

743
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:09.159
legal organizations that are in more repetitive markets, such as

744
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:15.559
accident litigation, right, right, like Morgan and Morgan. Morgan and

745
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:19.480
Morgan was a plug for them. They were one of

746
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:25.079
the early AI adopters with something called x AI that

747
00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:28.599
was in late twenty twenty three or early twenty twenty four.

748
00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:32.159
They released it and started using it, and they lost

749
00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:35.840
a major lawsuit to Walmart due to hallucinations, and then

750
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:38.920
they kind of backed off. So when I say fits

751
00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:41.960
and starts, it's like they backed off and they said, Okay, wait,

752
00:44:42.039 --> 00:44:44.039
we've got to we've got to make sure we're doing

753
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:45.320
this you know better.

754
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:47.239
And since then.

755
00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:51.920
They've they've actually launched a new startup which is focused

756
00:44:52.519 --> 00:44:57.400
clearly on features and functions of that space. Right, So

757
00:44:57.719 --> 00:45:01.000
you're going to have a niche down effect over time

758
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:06.320
where more and more companies can niche down. We're going

759
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:10.719
to do that with modules, right, Different kinds of law

760
00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:12.159
require different kinds.

761
00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:12.760
Of feature sets.

762
00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:18.639
An example is for Morgan and Morgan, who does accident litigation.

763
00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:24.000
A big thing is hospital records right when you would think.

764
00:45:23.800 --> 00:45:26.920
A hospital records, because hospital.

765
00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:30.239
Records show costs and hospital records show damage. And so

766
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:33.320
they've built a whole part of that solution just around

767
00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:40.239
hospital records. Yeah, so other companies are more afraid of AI.

768
00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:43.599
I've talked to some companies that are They literally said

769
00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:44.360
the word afraid.

770
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:47.400
You know, so, well, we're afraid of AI.

771
00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:50.679
We hear all these cases that we hear about sanctions

772
00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:53.519
in the courts, We hear about judges throwing cases out

773
00:45:53.559 --> 00:45:55.880
where you know, we want to do it the old

774
00:45:55.880 --> 00:45:58.039
fashioned way because we don't want to be in that group.

775
00:45:58.920 --> 00:45:59.119
Right.

776
00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:02.320
So, and then you have the ones who want to adopt,

777
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:07.960
but they don't know how to adjust their processes to

778
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:13.159
maximize AI, if that makes any sense. Their processes are old,

779
00:46:13.159 --> 00:46:17.320
so their processes need to change to maximize AI, or

780
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:20.320
else they're spending a bunch of money for something and

781
00:46:20.360 --> 00:46:22.159
they're not really getting a lot out of it, and

782
00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:24.800
that is happening often.

783
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:27.039
All right, there's also a term and you know, my

784
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:33.440
guess is, well, before this discussion, my assumption was, uh,

785
00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:36.239
there are people using AI at law firms already. They're

786
00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:38.079
just using it on their own, their own chat, GPT,

787
00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:39.840
their own Gemini, their own whatever.

788
00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:41.159
And shadow AI.

789
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:47.039
Yeah, talk about it. Yeah, very risky, yeah.

790
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:53.159
Shadow AI and also operating without an AI company policy governance,

791
00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:58.280
a governance policy to let the to let the employees

792
00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:00.519
know that, hey, when you come to work, it's not

793
00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:04.679
okay to just use AI to speed up your work

794
00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:09.760
or make your work more accurate and use anything you want. Now,

795
00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:14.199
the challenge then becomes, let's say you have a governance policy,

796
00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:18.559
and let's say you know you have good training. They

797
00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:21.280
can still do it on their own, and in general,

798
00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:26.960
human nature dictates that they will. Human nature dictates that

799
00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:31.840
unless you give them a better tool, they will do

800
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:35.719
the thing that makes them do their job faster because

801
00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:36.599
that gets praised.

802
00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:38.079
Sure, and they will do.

803
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:41.119
The thing that helps them do their job better than

804
00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:45.280
the other person in their same position because that gets praise.

805
00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:47.639
And if you do your job better, and you do

806
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:52.840
your job faster. It also equals performance reviews. So now

807
00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:55.559
you're telling someone, well, you know, don't do the thing

808
00:47:55.599 --> 00:47:57.800
that's going to make you look great, do this other

809
00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:01.159
thing that we bought, even though it's not quite good good. Right,

810
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:03.320
that's a that's a tough one. That's a that's a

811
00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:05.639
tough one to solve. So you have to give them

812
00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:09.840
a better tool and every The problem with human nature

813
00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:13.519
also is that I know it from managing technology for

814
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:19.719
many different companies, is everyone has their favorite tool, right,

815
00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:22.880
You have your favorite tools for sure, yep, I have

816
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:27.239
my favorite tools. Everyone has their favorite tool. So when

817
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:30.119
they go to work and they get a tool that's

818
00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:33.920
not as good as their favorite, which many of them aren't,

819
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:38.119
they say, why would I use this, you know, inferior

820
00:48:38.199 --> 00:48:40.599
tool when my tool that I use at home for

821
00:48:40.679 --> 00:48:42.159
AI is so much.

822
00:48:41.960 --> 00:48:45.280
Better and I'm used to it, I'm comfortable with it, right.

823
00:48:45.559 --> 00:48:46.360
So so that's it.

824
00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:49.440
Those are the those are the real Uh what do

825
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:54.599
you call cultural challenges that any company adopting AI has?

826
00:48:55.800 --> 00:48:57.480
Yeah, you refer to it as behavior change?

827
00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:02.599
Yes, I human nature. Human nature is very hard to manage.

828
00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:06.559
All right, we are on we're almost out of time.

829
00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:09.440
A couple questions. Is there a size law firm that's

830
00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:12.360
a sweet spot? Is somebody too small too big? Tell

831
00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:15.519
the audience that, and then what's the best way or

832
00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:17.599
excuse me, I won't even say that question yet. You

833
00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:18.480
answer that one first.

834
00:49:18.760 --> 00:49:21.360
Yeah, Well, we're steering away from the lower end of

835
00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:23.880
the market. If you look at the total addressable market,

836
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:26.679
it's about a nine billion dollar a year market.

837
00:49:26.679 --> 00:49:30.760
Right for law in general law, and you've got three stratas.

838
00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:34.440
You've got your larger enterprise corporations, then you've got your

839
00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:37.719
smaller you know, five and ten and fifteen person shops,

840
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:41.559
or I'll also put in that your legal departments for

841
00:49:41.679 --> 00:49:42.480
larger companies.

842
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:44.360
Oh okay, right, you know.

843
00:49:44.519 --> 00:49:46.119
Fewer seats, fewer seats.

844
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:51.159
We're targeting the middle, the middle of the middle to

845
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:53.719
the middle of the upper if that makes any sense, No,

846
00:49:53.800 --> 00:49:57.760
it does. Yeah, So we're targeting the upper half of

847
00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:00.559
the of the middle strata and the low or half

848
00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:04.079
of the enterprise strata. And the reason why we were

849
00:50:04.119 --> 00:50:07.639
doing that is because we believe that that's the place where

850
00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:11.480
you can succeed best when you get into enterprise of

851
00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:14.920
you know, law offices that have you know, you know,

852
00:50:15.079 --> 00:50:18.800
hundreds of thousands employees, you know which they are offices

853
00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:21.320
all over the world. You're in a whole new it's

854
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:24.239
a different operation and there and there are competitors who

855
00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:27.239
are going after that market and they've raised a lot

856
00:50:27.280 --> 00:50:27.719
of money.

857
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:30.559
We've decided, you know, not to do that.

858
00:50:31.559 --> 00:50:33.880
All right, here's the last question. Who in the viewing,

859
00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:37.960
viewing and listening audiences should reach out to you and why?

860
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:41.679
I think I think anyone who's looking for a great

861
00:50:41.719 --> 00:50:44.039
investment should should reach out to us.

862
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:46.719
We're we're right now.

863
00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:52.480
Just you know, began our fundraising campaign and there's no

864
00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:55.599
other opportunity like this in the market. We're one of

865
00:50:55.639 --> 00:50:59.239
a kind solution with a great management team. We're we're

866
00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:03.639
targeting on mart that's ripe for AI. In fact, any

867
00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:07.039
any law firm that doesn't adopt AI will will go

868
00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:07.840
out of business.

869
00:51:08.239 --> 00:51:09.960
So you have to adopt it.

870
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:13.280
It's not a it's not an if, right, and then

871
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:17.320
it's a when, Well, when is when is now? So

872
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:21.079
the timing couldn't be better, and our technology is well

873
00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:23.599
thought out and we've got an experienced management team. So

874
00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:26.360
those are the people that should contact me. The second

875
00:51:26.360 --> 00:51:28.880
people that should contact me is anyone who's looking for

876
00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:32.760
something that does the things that I've described. You know,

877
00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:35.400
any law firm that's looking you know, any law firm

878
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:39.679
that has say, fifty attorneys, thirty attorneys, twenty five attorneys,

879
00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:42.440
up to one hundred attorneys. That's kind of our sweet spot.

880
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:45.599
And they're saying, hey, you know, maybe we are afraid

881
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:48.480
of AI. You know, give us a call. We can

882
00:51:48.519 --> 00:51:49.079
help you with that.

883
00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:52.639
And your email address one more time. The website is

884
00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:54.280
icognio dot com.

885
00:51:54.880 --> 00:51:55.880
It's Icognio.

886
00:51:56.159 --> 00:52:00.599
I see O g n Io, not Incognio.

887
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:03.000
But hi I Cognio. Yeah, and my.

888
00:52:03.159 --> 00:52:07.039
Email address is CRAIGT. Brenner at icognio dot com.

889
00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:07.440
Perfect.

890
00:52:07.480 --> 00:52:09.239
Well, thank you so much for the time. We really

891
00:52:09.280 --> 00:52:11.239
appreciate you being here. I enjoyed it, and.

892
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:12.800
Yeah, I enjoyed it too as well.

893
00:52:12.840 --> 00:52:15.639
Thank you very cool, You're very welcome, and thanks everybody

894
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:18.440
for watching and listening. This is a show about business

895
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:20.039
and business challenges.

896
00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:20.320
Right.

897
00:52:20.440 --> 00:52:24.320
If you've got concerns about the sales effectiveness of your company,

898
00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:26.440
whether your sales team is you or very small or

899
00:52:26.440 --> 00:52:28.599
it's very large, feel free to reach out to me

900
00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:31.519
on Facebook or LinkedIn. One of my easy email addresses

901
00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:34.960
is Kevin at Winning Business Radio dot com. We are

902
00:52:35.119 --> 00:52:38.920
Winning Incorporated, part of Sandler Training. We develop salespeople and

903
00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:42.760
sales teams at the high achievers and sales leaders into

904
00:52:42.800 --> 00:52:45.119
true coaches and mentors. We're not a fit for everybody,

905
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:47.400
but hey, maybe we should have a conversation. Thank you

906
00:52:47.519 --> 00:52:49.960
one for another job well done. Our producer and engineer

907
00:52:50.239 --> 00:52:52.960
join us again next Monday, April sixth. We'll do it

908
00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:55.159
all over again with a great guest. Until then, this

909
00:52:55.280 --> 00:52:56.039
is Kevin Hallinan.

910
00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:01.400
You've been listening to Winning Business Radio with your host,

911
00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:04.599
Kevin Helenan. If you missed any part of this episode,

912
00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:08.840
The podcast is available on top for podcasting and iHeartRadio.

913
00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:13.000
For more information and questions, go to Winning Business Radio

914
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:16.119
dot com or check us out on social media. Tune

915
00:53:16.159 --> 00:53:18.239
in again next week and every Monday at four pm

916
00:53:18.280 --> 00:53:21.760
Eastern Time to listen live to Winning Business Radio on

917
00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:26.320
W four CY Radio W four cy dot com. Until then,

918
00:53:26.679 --> 00:53:30.280
let's succeed where others have failed and win in business

919
00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:34.360
with Kevin Helenan and Winning Business Radio