Bill Coyne-Estate Planning Attorney, founder of Boston Legacy Planning and Legacy Planning Network

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Any questions or comments should be directed
to those show hosts. Thank you for

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choosing W FOURCY Radio. Churchill said, those who fail to learn from history

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are condemned to repeat it. Kevin
Helenan believes that certainly applies to business.

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Welcome to Winning Business Radio here at
W four CY Radio. That's W fourcy

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dot com and now your host,
Kevin Helena. Thanks everybody for joining in.

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I am Kevin Hallen, and welcome
back to another episode of Winning Business

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TV and Radio on w fource dot
com. We're streaming live on Talk four

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Facebook at Winning Business Radio, and of

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iHeartRadio, Spotify, Apple, pretty
much wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

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The mission of Winning Business radio and
TV, as regular listeners know,

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is to offer insights and advice to
help people avoid the mistakes of others,

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to learn best practices, right the
how twos, the what twos, the

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what not twos, to be challenged, and certainly to be inspired by the

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successes of others. But you know, virtually every successful person I've ever talked

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to has had some form of failure
in their lives and careers. So while

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we all have to get our knees
skin once in a while, I always

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say I'm driven to keep those scrapes
from needing major surgery. Let's endeavor to

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learn from history so we don't repeat
it today. My guest is Bill Coin,

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estate planning attorney and founder of Business
Legacy Planning, LLC and Legacy Planning

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Network. Here's Bill's bio. Bill
Coin grew up the oldest, yes listen,

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the oldest of ten kids in an
Irish Catholic family in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

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In grade school, he thought he
might become a priest. By the

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time he got to college, he
wanted to be a rock musician. He

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still plays music, but is married
and has two It held children. Bill

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is the founding member of Boston Legacy
Planning, LLC. He's been in the

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private practice of law for over thirty
years, initially focusing on business litigation.

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Bill was trained as a mediator in
ninety seven and in collaborative law in ninety

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nine, and since that time the
focus of Bill's practice has been a state

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planning, legacy planning, business exit
planning, and asset protection planning, as

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well as the avoidance and resolution of
disputes and involving trusts a state's business ownership

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and fiduciaries. The logo of Boston
Legacy Planning, LLC is a state planning

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for human beings. I love that
bill as a reminder of two important facts.

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First that people care much more about
excuse me, about more than money,

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and second that people's grew up,
so the state planners need to provide

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guardrails to protect people from all those
things that can go wrong after the will

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is signed. Bill's a certified legacy
advisor and a certified business exit planning consultant.

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He served as the facilitator of the
Member Advisory Board of the National Network

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of Estate Planning Attorneys. He's published
articles in law journals about a technique to

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settle cases sooner. He's made dozens
of presentations on tax and estate planning topics

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to attorneys, CPAs, and financial
advisors. He also offers regular webinars on

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estate planning and business succession planning for
individuals and business owners. More recently,

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Bill founded a startup company called the
Legacy Planners Network, which offers consulting services

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to estate planning firms who want to
build stronger relationships while making more money with

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their existing clients. Bill received his
bachelor's degree in history and philosophy Philosophy I

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can talk from the University of Pittsburgh
and his law degree from Boston College.

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His husband to Jean, who's the
executive director of the Southwest Boston Community Development

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Corporation, and dad to Phil who's
a finished carpenter, and Sarah, who's

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a grad student in biochem at Harvard. Bill, Welcome to Winning Business Radio

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and TV. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me.

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Kevin, you got it. I
know you're busy and I appreciate the

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time, so I want to jump
in here. You grew up in the

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city of Pittsburgh in the region.
Well, we're just outside the city,

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just south of a place called Homestead, which which historians though was the site

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of the Homestead Steal strike. So
right, and a lot of people in

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the neighborhood worked in the mills,
so it was very close to next town

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over from Pittsburgh. So describe that
upbringing crowded we had with ten kids,

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Yeah, you know, we started
off in a kind of a gi tracked

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house. Yeah, and then moved
to a bigger place when they got to

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be like seven of us. But
it was always interesting. I mean,

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it was always bunk bits. You
didn't have much more choice of that m

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but as the oldest, you know, it was kind of I had had

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to help with the little ones,
and so that got to be kind of

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an important part of who I thought
of myself. I thought of myself as

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a big brother, and in some
ways still do. So it was great.

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Family was very devoutly Catholic, which
I think is partly what led me

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to think about being a priest.
Didn't take long for me to learn that

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that wasn't what got hid in mind
for me once I got to high school

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or a later part of high school
anyway. So yeah, so that was

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it was great, great way to
grow up Pittsburgh was a great town to

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grow up. And when you were
a little so you and I played music

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together. We'll touch on that later. So music was certainly an interest of

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yours growing up. What else were
interests growing up? Um? Reading was

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always a big deal. Yeah.
I was never much of an athlete.

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Played a lot of whiffleball and uh, you know, pick up baseball,

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but never was much at Little league
or any of that kind of stuff.

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I was more likely to be reading, and very when I was in high

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school, very scholarly. It was
a pre seminary, so we were reading

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Greek and Latin. I took myself
away too seriously in those days. Well,

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actually it's paid off, probably in
other ways. It has in many

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ways. A matter of fact,
when I was in sixth grade, I

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told people that I was thinking about
being a priest, and my nickname was

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Father Bill through six seventh and eighth
grade. Very yeah, not ideal,

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but the girls away. I think
he's the girls away. What made the

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shoes pitt in a degree in history
and philosophy. It was really that once

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I knew I did not want to
be a priest, I thought I wanted

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to be a teacher and philosophy came
naturally and always had an interest in history,

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was reading a lot of history,
and Pitt was a natural because I

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could commute there, and tuition in
those days was four hundred and fifty dollars

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a trimester. Wow, so a
thousand over a thousand dollars a year,

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and all the way up to like
eighteen hundred a year by the time I

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graduated. So it was not a
tough decision. Yeah, and then you

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got your law degree later one drove
that decision. And what were you doing

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in between? Talk about that journey? Actually in between, I was a

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carpenter too. I got a little
frustrated with the idea of being a history

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professor. It seemed well academic is
actually the word for it. But there

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would be this notion that I would
write this dissertation debunking the Frederick Jackson Turner

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frontier theory, and then thirty years
later somebody would write a dissertation debunking my

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theory. Yeah, there didn't seem
to be anything very solid to it.

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So the idea of going to work
as a carpenter and at the end of

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the day, there's a wall there
where there didn't used to be a wall

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with something that I found really appealing. That's cool. In the end,

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that just wasn't challenging enough. I
decided I did want to do something that

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was used a little bit more of
me, and I frankly settled on law.

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It's kind of a compromise between being
a history professor and a carpenter,

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maybe with a little bit of priest
thrown in. Yeah, I think there

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is. I think there is.
And then I always like to know why

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people chose a particular school. Sometimes
it's that's the school I got into.

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Others there was an affinity there.
You know, being a Catholic maybe had

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something to do with your choice.
At BC, it probably did. I

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applied to several I got into be
you as well, and I'm not really

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sure why. I think the fact
that I had was Catholic may have been

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may have been a deciding factor.
Well, fine law school, that's for

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sure. Yeah, and I got
I really lucked out. I had some

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great professors. Marianne Glendon was first
year property teacher, and she was just

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a just a wonderful teacher. So
I had some my great experiences there.

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You began your career at a firm
called Lawson and Whitson, Right, how

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did you get that role? Actually, I started off with a guy named

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Carmen Derso Oh all right, and
that was before Lawson and Whitson was pretty

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early on. But I was with
Carmen for a couple of years while actually

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while I was in law school um
and started off with him. He did

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business litigation, so that's what I
did, and then I got hired away

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from Carmen by Lawson and Whitson.
At the time it was Lawson and but

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that's again still when I was very
interested in litigation, and so that was

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the beginning of the practice. It
was very much business litigation because of the

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contract or background. I'm very interested
in doing construction litigation. That's mostly what

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I was doing in those days.
What as you think back, this is

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probably one of the hardest questions you'll
have, were what was a key lesson

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you learned at Lawson? I think
persistence, because what I found was when

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you are up against the other side
has written a brief, you need to

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respond to it. That you need
to go right at their strongest argument and

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go right at their best case and
figure out what's wrong with it, figure

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out how it can be distinguished or
how it can be turned around to help

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you. And so that was that
persistence I think was something I got from

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Evan lost. The other thing I
got from Evan is have fun. You

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know, Evan was an amazing litigator, but he always had fun. And

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you were there for a long time, and then you founded bridges in Coin

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with a focus on a state planning
and business exit planning. So I want

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to have two things. And this
will be the last question. We'll take

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our first break right after this,
talk about that experience and why you changed

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focus from business led to the state
planning and business exit planning. I ended

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up getting very frustrated with the way
the system was treating clients. So I've

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been at it enough years so that
I was winning most of the cases I

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tried, but most of them were
settling. The problem was that they were

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settling just before trial or sometimes even
during trial. Yeah, and by that

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point, something that would have been
a really good settlement on day one is

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now one that nobody wants because they
spent so much money on legal fees.

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Yeah, it's like the lawyers had
eaten up all the settlement money during the

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two or three years of litigation.
So that was frustrated. I've got and

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that's what I took the mediation training
as a way to figure out how to

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settle cases sooner. I learned about
collaborative law, which is another technique to

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help cases settle sooner. And I
was in the middle of a transition from

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moving my practice from litigation to mediation
or state planning when a guy in the

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office there at Lass and Whiteson asked
me if forever thought about being an a

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state planner. And my impression of
a state planners was that you need to

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wear a bow tie and suspenders and
you know, crew cat play polo one

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weekend, very the very round classes. Right there you go, and it

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just it didn't fit. It was
not me, so I was resistant,

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but he persuaded me to give it
a try and introduced me to a group

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called the National Network of State Planning
Attorneys that took an approach to a state

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planning that was all about problem solving, which was really what I liked about

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the dispute resolution stuff. The litigation
excellent. That's a good place to break

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in segue. We will be right
back after about just a minute. With

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Bill Coin. You're listening to Winning
Business Radio with Kevin Helena on W four

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CY Radio. That's W fourcy dot
com. Don't go away. More helpful

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information is coming right up right here
on Winning Business Radio. All right,

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now. And now back to Winning
Business Radio with Kevin Helena, presenting exciting

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topics and expert guests with one goal
in mind to help you succeed in business.

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Here once again is Kevin Helena.
We are back again with Bill Coin

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of Biggest Business. Hello, let's
try that again. Boston Legacy Planning.

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Sorry, what was the hardest part
starting the firm? And it was a

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while ago, but so it was
really the kind of being alone. I've

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been at Lawson and Whiteson was which
was a pretty big firm. Then I

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was a partner in Bridges in Coin
and there was a kind of allocation of

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responsibilities and the other partner was responsible
for all the administrative stuff. So all

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of a sudden, I've got to
do it all now. I was fortunate

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in that in my time at the
National Network of the State Planning Attorneys,

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they really put a lot of emphasis
on practice management and marketing. So they

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had us read Michael Gerber. Right, we spent some time with that.

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We did a Blue Ocean strategy,
we did some Dan Sullivan stuff. Oh

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excellent. Yeah, So it was
really the yeah strategic coach and some really

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stuff. So I kind of had
the tools, but it was still a

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little bit scary to kind of actually
launch the business and take off from there.

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And so it was really that getting
don And I don't think I had

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read Lean Startup then, which is
another one of the things that I really

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relied on. And frankly, I
didn't have the luxury to do a lead

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startup, right. I just went
all of a sudden from being part of

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the partnership to be a solo and
trying to sort all of that out.

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But I think it was a good
experience to try to have to do all

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that and then to find space and
you find a situation where I could do

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the practice, figure out how it
was going to market it. What are

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the things I wanted to keep doing? What are the things I didn't want

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to do? And I guess it's
the things any business owner asked to decide

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who's my ideal client? Right?
Kind of all of this really core stuff.

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And I was lucky that I had
the training come to the forth.

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What was You may have just touched
on it, but what was the most

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rewarding or has been the most rewarding
part of running your own firm. It's

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all the work with the clients.
Yeah. Absolutely, to have that impact

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in people's lives and have people come
in with a level of anxiety or an

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uncertainty or a concern about the most
important thing that a lies really, you

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know, is my spouse going to
be okay something happens to me? Are

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my kids going to be okay?
Something happens to us? And to help

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people work through those issues, to
figure out what they want to do,

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and then to put something in place
to help them and then to follow up,

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which is something that a lot of
estate planners don't do. And it's

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really one of the unique things about
the national network model, which is that

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I learned from to have clients come
back every year to get to know the

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family, what's going on in the
life, what's changed. Is there a

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new marriage, is there a new
kid and new grandchild? Well, as

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a result of that, does your
plan need to change? And people are

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really comfortable with the idea that their
financial advisor is going to be keeping track

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of their investments and change those as
the market changes. But somehow the idea

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that your lawyer is going to change
your plan as the law changes is really

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foreign to people. So it's that
ongoing relationship getting to know people. So

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that's not magic. That just doesn't
happen. Unfortunately, No, I haven't

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seen that for me. Fortunately for
me, it doesn't happen right right,

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So I want to revisit two terms
you mentioned. I read in your bio

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and you mentioned a moment ago a
few minutes ago, mediation and collaborative law.

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Can you define those two terms for
the audience. Sure, Mediation I

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think a lot of people are familiar
with, and it's the idea if you're

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in a dispute, and it used
to be you went the mediator before you

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went to lawyers. Very often these
days, you very often go to mediation

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with lawyers, but you sit down
with a neutral somebody who is a professional,

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experienced, trained at helping people work
things out. And the mediator listens

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to people and listens for opportunities and
tries to get people to reach common ground

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on various issues. And so that's
what the mediator does. It's a neutral.

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Collaborative law is similar in a way
in with collaborative law. Essentially,

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it's like you're going to mediate without
a mediator, and the idea is the

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lawyers will agree that their job is
to settle the case and they're not going

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to threaten litigation and they're not going
to go to litigation. And in the

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purest form of it, if you
threaten litigation or if you file a lawsuit,

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the lawyer has agreed they will withdraw, so the client has to start

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again. So you've invested a lot
in resolving this issue. We're really really

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serious about resolving it. And the
article that I wrote a number of years

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ago kind of made the point that
a lawyer is really conflicted because the lawyer

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will say, we really how to
try to settle this case, knowing in

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the back of his or her mind
that if the case doesn't settlement, there's

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you know, thirty forty fifty one
hundred thousand dollars in legal fees there.

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So it really it's more difficult to
be wholehearted in recommending settlement or doing the

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things that need to do to be
settlement. So that's kind of the collaborative

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law model. And then talk about
you mentioned it as did your bio,

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the technique to settle cases soon,
and you've actually written about that in law

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journals. It's the collaborative law process. It was called the Case for Settlement

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Council, and the ideas if you
want to settle a case, for God's

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sake, don't hire a litigator they're
going to litigate. Hire somebody whose job

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it is to settle. All right, talk about these two designations, Certified

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Legacy Advisor and Certified Business Exit Planning
Consultant. Yeah. So one of the

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other pillars of my practice, aside
from the national network, was got named

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Scott Farnsworth, and Scott got interested
early on in what he calls legacy planning.

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He had a group called the Sunbridge
Legacy Builder's Network, and he was

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focused on the non financial aspects of
planning. That people have a lot more

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than money to give to their kids. They want to pass on family stories,

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they want to pass on wisdom.
If they're a business owner, they

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would love to pass on to the
kids how to run the business successfully.

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If they've been parents and they've done
a good job parenting, they hope their

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kids will be good parents too.
So the idea of legacy planning is that

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you are going to pass on stories. You are going to pass on that

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values and family keeps says, you
know, getting dad's telecaster, you know

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that he played at the high school, hop or whatever. It is a

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wonderful thing that keeps the parents alive, and particularly if there's a story that

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goes with it. So it's not
just the guitar. It's the story of

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how it went out of tune at
the completely inappropriate moment, right in the

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middle of a solo, right or
the great dance where you played and your

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band got rave reviews and encorees and
all of that stuff. And the enchantment

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of the sea ball. What's that? The enchantment of the sea ball?

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Exactly? Exactly, Yeah, So
that's the idea of legacy planning is that

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you're dealing with the human side of
a state planning. And most of state

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planning focuses just on the money.
But everybody's going to leave behind not just

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money, but memories and messes.
And if you don't pay attention to the

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potential messages, you're going to lead
behind bad memories. So legacy planning is

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really about taking that big picture and
helping people pass on everything that's important to

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them. That's good. I'm just
writing a note to you here in the

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chat, I spelled it wrong,
So talk about and I'll cut you off

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in about four minutes here, Okay, talk about your current law focus,

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right, I want you to flush
this out somewhere. What is a state

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planning you just mentioned legacy planning.
Spend as much time as you want on

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that, and then we may not
make it to the break. We'll talk

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about it when we come back.
Business exit planning, asset protection, etc.

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Yeah. So, while I do
business exit planning, it's largely when

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the business exit plan is part of
the person's estate plan. When the business

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exit plan and the estate plan are
the same plan, which means it's a

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closely held business. Maybe it's partners, maybe it's a family business. That's

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really my focus there. The creditor
protection is primarily for the next generation.

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How are you going to protect the
kids from creditors? But the real focus,

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00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:40.960
I would say is base a state
planning, which is wills and revocable

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living trusts, and it's helping people
do things like avoid probate, avoid a

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state taxes, do effective planning for
what happens to me and my family if

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I become disabled, And so that's
really the core and the heart of it

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is really planning for revocable living trusts. In my experience, when somebody comes

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to me and says I need a
simple will, they have no idea what

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a simple will is. What they're
really telling me is I'm not going to

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pay a lot for this muffler.
But the reality is, as soon as

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I tell them about what is a
will, what is a trust, everybody

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wants a trust. They just want
to pay the simple will price for the

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trust. So beautiful. That's the
real issue. So let's talk about that.

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Here's what you really want, here's
what you want to pay. What

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can we do? And so that's
really the core of the practice is doing

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planning for people with wills, and
trusts, and then also settlements after somebody

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dies. Now you have to put
the will into practice in a probate,

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or you have to do the trust
settlement, so that ideally the transition happens

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just the way people were hoping when
they came to me for the planning.

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Tell us as is the theme of
the of the program, and I want

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you to try to come up with
something that's not obvious. All right,

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some mistakes that people have made with
regard to exit life, exit planning,

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I'll call it. There are many. An easy one is no will,

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but right, oh for the people, Yes, I was just thinking of

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the lawyer, for the lawyer that's
trying to do everything. The mistakes that

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people make are thinking that the state
planning is a set of documents, and

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they think that once they sign their
documents they're done. The next thing they

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have to do is die. They
think that buying doing a state planning is

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like buying a big screen TV and
big screen because they know it's going to

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be expensive. The state planning is
really more like joining a health club.

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Getting the documents is like paying the
membership. See that's a really good analogy,

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00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:03.240
but there's still a lot of things
that have to be done or that's

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not just going to work. The
documents are you said before magic. The

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00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:12.160
documents aren't magic, but people act
like they are. And then simply by

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signing the document, they are now
all set. And I would say that's

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probably the biggest mistake, but then
related mistakes thinking, for example, you're

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doing your kids and honor by naming
them your executor or your trustee or your

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00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:36.160
healthcare proxy. Right, I'm giving
the kids the great honor of deciding when

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to pull the plug and kill me. Right. All of these are jobs

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that are difficult, and they're a
lot more difficult if the kids don't know

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what to do before they start to
do them. So we've really got to

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get the kids ready for that moment
of transition by doing training. And that's

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another thing that people just don't do. People don't and organized, They name

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the kids to step up for them, and then things are all over the

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place. I had one woman who
was to trust the of her mom's trust.

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The mom had downsized, and the
daughter when she started to commit and

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take over her affairs from twenty seven
bankers boxes full of stuff that the mother

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had moved out of the house.
She had to go through every one of

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the boxes because she had no idea
whether there might be a life insurance policy

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whatever in there. So it's that
that um being disorganized, right, not

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being ready, not getting the kids
ready, and that puts it on their

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burden, on the on the successor
and the survivor. Right, Yeah,

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that's right, and that's why I
say the messes end up affecting the memories.

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Let's let's pause right there. Get
that story. I want to hear

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it, can't I want to hear
it. We will be back in about

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another minute with Billcoin of Boston Legacy
Planning. Let's take a commercial break.

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00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:12.920
You're listening to Winning Business Radio with
Kevin Helena on W FOURCY Radio. That's

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00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:18.680
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topics and expert guests with one goal
in mind to help you succeed in business.

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00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:30.160
Here once again is Kevin Helena.
We are back with Bill Coyn of

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00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:36.799
Boston Legacy Plant Boston Legacy Planning.
So now tell that story you just We're

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going to give an example, I
think. Yeah. So I've once represented

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a woman whose husband owned a business. He had a buy sell agreement with

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his partner, and they had agreed
with each other that if one died,

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the other will buy at the stock
of the business, pretty common by cell

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cross purchase by selling. The problem
was that when they bought the insurance,

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00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:08.160
they each bought insurance on their own
lives, payable to the spouse. So

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what happened was the guy dies.
My client is the wife of the guy

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who died. His estate owns his
stock in the business, his wife has

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00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:27.000
a million dollars and his partner has
an obligation to buy the stock and no

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00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:33.480
money to do it with. So
what she ended up saying was that if

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he were alive, I'd kill him. And I see that a lot where

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people end up leaving. This is
one of the real one of my ideal

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00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:52.160
clients is and typically it's the woman
whose husband has died, but it's the

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woman whose husband has died and left
a mess, and she is quite sure

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she's never going to do that with
her kids. So she really gets the

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00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:07.680
idea of doing estate planning for human
beings. Right. Oh, by the

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00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:12.839
way, I love that tagline,
the two important facts. Talk about those

384
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:15.559
again. I read them, but
I want you to flush them out.

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00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:20.640
The two important Oh, the fact
that yes, it's that it's about more

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00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:23.240
than money. People care about more
than money. Is back to the legacy

387
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:29.799
planning. Right. We do estate
planning not so our kids will have money,

388
00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:34.240
but because we want their lives to
be better, right, And we

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00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:37.200
last thing they want to do is
the kids to get money and blow it

390
00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:45.279
right or use it on something that's
destructive. So the idea is, and

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00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:50.559
we want them to use the money
wisely and interestingly enough, We want them

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00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:52.200
to use the money in a way
that we think is wise, not in

393
00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:57.920
the way they think it's wise.
But that's fine. So it's a it's

394
00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:05.079
a matter of understanding that estate planning
is not just getting the money ready for

395
00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:09.119
the kids. It's getting the kids
ready for the money. And it's about

396
00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:14.799
life goals. And the life goals
are not about dollars amount in the account.

397
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:16.240
It's what's going to happen to my
spouse, what's going to happen to

398
00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:21.000
my kids, and how can I
do that? So that's one aspect of

399
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:24.799
estate planning. And then the other
fact is that we screw up. People

400
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:28.960
screw up all the time. We
get busy. We kind of know that

401
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:31.319
there's stuff we need to do.
Right the lawyer when people had their will

402
00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:37.200
their trust signed, the lawyer probably
said, now make sure you put assets

403
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:39.119
in the trust. If you don't
put us assets in the trust, they

404
00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:45.400
won't work. Well. The wagging
finger isn't enough because people don't know what

405
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:50.720
to do and they're busy, and
so they just let it go. It's

406
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:58.880
stressful. So we have to understand
that people are busy, and to some

407
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:02.039
extent it's maybe go on our part. I've done this wonderful thing by giving

408
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:06.079
this people a state plan on a
state plan. They should appreciate it.

409
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:10.679
You know. I kind of get
over myself in a way and understand that

410
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:15.480
this is about in their lives and
I have to find a way to get

411
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:20.920
things done working with them, which
is one of the advantages of a legacy

412
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:24.960
planners network, right, because I'm
going to have an ongoing relationship with these

413
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:29.480
people. They're going to come back
and I'm going to tell them how important

414
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:35.119
it is to get that fidelity account
into the trust right and that financial advisor

415
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:37.360
was supposed to do it and he
didn't do it. What do we do

416
00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:39.599
now? Well, I'm going to
meet with them and I'm going to ask

417
00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:43.880
them at the end of the year
did that get done? And if it

418
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:46.000
didn't get done, we're going to
talk about it, and I'm going to

419
00:34:46.039 --> 00:34:52.039
help them do the things that they
really need to do. So so,

420
00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:58.639
I think part of a state planner
for human beings is understanding that it really

421
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:05.400
is about relationships and out about documents. When when my dad passed, our

422
00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:07.719
oldest sister handled most of that.
There was very little he had to when

423
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:13.159
you know, an old, smaller
Winnebago and really nothing else. When Mom

424
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:16.920
passed, there was a house and
some investment accounts and some life insurance and

425
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:23.239
I was the executor. And we
were blessed because she lived a great life.

426
00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:28.760
We knew she was passing from cancer. We had, you know,

427
00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:32.119
several good years and then on and
off to two years of good and bad,

428
00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:37.639
but plenty of time, right,
and my brother and sisters were and

429
00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:42.840
me and I credit my mother for
this. We're very gracious. It was

430
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:44.159
like no, no, no you, no, no, no you.

431
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:47.239
It wasn't I want my share it. You know. We almost fell over

432
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:51.159
each other to make sure that everyone
was treated equally and that you know,

433
00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:53.440
yeah, it just was. I
mean, she she did some planning.

434
00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:59.400
Uh it probably wasn't what should have
happened, but it was just a good

435
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:01.960
experience. But I've heard, just
anecdotally, so many others that are not

436
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:08.079
that way. I mean, families
fight about money after somebody passes often,

437
00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:13.000
I'm sure you've seen it. Oh, in this notorious case, one of

438
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:17.320
the root causes of dysfunctional planning his
disputes. There was a Massachusetts case called

439
00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:22.400
a State of king where an elderly
gentleman whose wife had died. He was

440
00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:25.840
grief stricken. He really was out
of his mind for a while and just

441
00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:32.079
not capable of making decisions. The
eldest daughter that was taking care of him

442
00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:36.519
took him to a lawyer to make
a new will in which she was the

443
00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:42.320
primary beneficiary, of course, and
they leaving the lawyer's office, he's saying,

444
00:36:42.440 --> 00:36:46.159
boy, they're really going to hate
this. Little did he know so?

445
00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:50.280
And it was a surprise that Everett
was a shock. Everybody had been

446
00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:52.360
told that it was going to be
shared equally. They opened the will and

447
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:57.880
this one daughter gets everything. The
family sued. Two different groups of the

448
00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:05.440
family sue. There's this claims of
undue influence of incapacity, and there were

449
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:10.280
really issues there. So three years
later the daughter was appointed Winds. The

450
00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:15.079
will is allowed. She is in
there. The estate was about a one

451
00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:20.880
point two million dollars estate. She
submits the bill for her lawyers to be

452
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:24.760
taken out of the estate eight hundred
and ninety six thousand dollars in legal fees.

453
00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:30.119
There's another two hundred thousand dollars in
legal fees for the other ones.

454
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:37.320
Basically a million dollars got taken up
by the lawyers. And I was gonna

455
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:42.880
say in the family is probably never
the same never. And I've had situations

456
00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:46.440
where sisters and it can be a
small thing, it can be a fairly

457
00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:52.039
small who gets the artwork that hung
in the living room, Sisters who will

458
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:57.960
never talk to one another again.
And this is an area where my background

459
00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:05.199
in mediation and collaborative law ends up
being very helpful in the dispute result in

460
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:10.559
the trust field, because I will
actually put an ADR provision into the trust

461
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:15.320
that we'll say, if you're going
to have a dispute, well, we're

462
00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:19.039
going to talk it over and if
we don't resolve it, it's going to

463
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:22.519
go to mediation. And if it
doesn't get resolved in mediation, I may

464
00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:27.960
give people the option to say we're
going to arbitrate so it's not public and

465
00:38:28.039 --> 00:38:32.280
it's going to be cheaper, or
people can go to litigation. But the

466
00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:37.800
idea is, and then you work
with the clients during lifetime. If there

467
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:40.639
are two brothers that you know are
going to be at each other throats after

468
00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:45.559
you die, let what can we
do anything about it? Now? I

469
00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:52.360
know very few families where the relationships
have gotten better after mom and dad die.

470
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:54.559
Yeah, but again that part of
our homework. Part of the reason

471
00:38:54.679 --> 00:39:00.639
for the Legacy Planners Network is,
you know, the work is helping with

472
00:39:00.679 --> 00:39:06.679
the family harmony, avoiding disputes.
The documents are just the membership. We're

473
00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:09.760
still got to go and work out
on the weights and also get the results.

474
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:15.800
Sorry to clarify that good analogy.
To clarify that Legacy Planners Network,

475
00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:20.880
you're consulting to other lawyers and law
firms to help them with these techniques.

476
00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:28.320
Right, So, the Legacy Planners
Network has been my own continuing contact program.

477
00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:30.280
I've called it that for years,
ever since I started my own firm.

478
00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:35.320
That was the name I had from
my clients. Coming back and having

479
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:42.000
this, I started to use a
new software tool a couple of years ago,

480
00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:46.760
I guess, and realized about a
year ago that I could actually help

481
00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:52.519
other lawyers do an updating program.
I could have their clients come to my

482
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:58.400
updating program where I'm not their lawyer, right right, I'm a I'm a

483
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:00.920
coach, I'm a consultant kind of
like you. Right in some ways on

484
00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:05.480
that I agree with the law firm. I'm not going to do any legal

485
00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:08.360
work. My engagement letter with the
client or the participation agreement with the client

486
00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:13.760
says, I'm not doing your legal
work. If in the course of our

487
00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:17.840
discussing what needs to happen with your
plan, you now need to do medicaid

488
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:22.599
planning, I'm going to send you
back to your lawyer and they're going to

489
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:25.000
do the legal work. But I'm
going to do all this non legal stuff,

490
00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:30.159
right. I'm going to worry about
the memories and the messages and less

491
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:36.840
about the legal stuff. And so
that is really they talk about lean startup.

492
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:43.880
I'm just beta testing that idea now
and we're trying different ways to kind

493
00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:47.840
of make the whole thing work.
And he used technology to make it work.

494
00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:53.280
So that's my latest business challenge is
really launching this new business that will

495
00:40:53.320 --> 00:41:00.079
help other lawyers have this ongoing contact
with the clients to get additional lead to

496
00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:05.320
work from their own clients by having
the clients engage in this updating program.

497
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:08.920
Love it all Right, We're gonna
talk about two more things, the second

498
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:16.159
second being music. The first what
is your best advice to people that have

499
00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:22.519
not done any of this planning?
Give them a couple of things they can

500
00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:29.079
do right away. Well, I
think one of the things that they should

501
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:32.400
do is get organized, and it
will help when they go to see the

502
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:37.480
lawyer if they're already organized. So
if they can make a list of what

503
00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:43.920
the different assets are, if if
there are any plant is anything other than

504
00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:47.360
everything to my spouse, and then
the kids equally, I would think through

505
00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:52.840
about what they want to have happen. And then if there are some kids

506
00:41:52.880 --> 00:42:00.320
that maybe shouldn't get the money right
away or shouldn't ever have complete control over

507
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:04.599
it, so somebody else should be
involved in the decisions, think about those

508
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:12.159
problems, and that way when somebody
goes to a lawyer and look for a

509
00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:15.480
lawyer that's going to be interested in
hearing about that stuff. I mean,

510
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:21.280
some lawyer's business model is to have
your foreign documents and you have one meeting

511
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:25.199
with the clients and sign them up, get the information to fill in the

512
00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:30.920
blanks on your word processor, and
then you go into your program and you

513
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.159
spit out the documents and they come
back a week later and you sign everything

514
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:37.119
and then thank god, you're done
with them. Never have to see those

515
00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:44.480
people again, right, So you
want to avoid Yeah, that's the business

516
00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:51.239
model for years, So I would
say, it's looking for a lawyer who

517
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:58.559
will deal with the whatever complications might
exist in your in your family. I

518
00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:01.559
would say, but I think getting
organized is the kind of the biggest part.

519
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:07.800
Make sure you have the documents for
the different accounts, and then then

520
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:13.440
you're ready to meet with a lawyer
and being mentally ready to kind of know

521
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:19.599
what the issues are a big deal, really a lawyer, all right,

522
00:43:19.639 --> 00:43:22.760
So now let's talk about music.
This will take us the next few minutes

523
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:27.920
and we'll wrap up. You and
i've played music together full disposure. We've

524
00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:32.320
known each other for a few years
or both part of provisors. How did

525
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:35.599
that begin? I can tell you
my story real quick, but how did

526
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:39.039
that? How did your passion for
music begin? Watching my dad play the

527
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:44.719
yuku aile really, yeah, that's
a that's a cool little instrument. It's

528
00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:47.360
going to be played ukulele. And
then he broke down and got a guitar

529
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:52.960
and was singing the songs he grew
up with. And so I got to

530
00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:59.239
be at fifteen, and I decided
I wanted to play guitar. So I

531
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:05.119
banged away on my dad's old guitar, and then I went to college and

532
00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:12.039
got into a blues band cool,
and then the bass player left, and

533
00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:16.880
so I decided to switch to bass, and so played bass in blues and

534
00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:22.119
rock bands for a while and then
went back to Irish music. So it's

535
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:25.639
kind of enjoyed that I played guitar
to back up Irish music and then more

536
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:31.239
recently took up mandolin and banjo so
I would play lead at the Irish music

537
00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:37.800
sessions. So it's been a it's
been a long strange trip, as Jerry

538
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:42.480
Garcia might say. So we were
a musical family. My mother was a

539
00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:45.159
teacher, and I don't remember the
edict, but I know it was pretty

540
00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:52.960
much pretty much pick an instrument right, yeah, And oldest sister piano and

541
00:44:52.119 --> 00:45:00.599
voice. Older brother guitar. She
still dabbles, she still sings a lot.

542
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:06.039
She's very good. Uh. Brother
plays guitar all the time, loves

543
00:45:06.039 --> 00:45:09.920
it and sing. My youngest sister
makes has made her living for years out

544
00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:17.280
of music. She teaches, she
does some therapy therapeutic music with it's um

545
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:22.320
he's of mb it's she's really fascinating. She's written, she's performed everywhere.

546
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:28.239
Uh, she's she's a phenom.
She makes she's made her living. Uh

547
00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:31.079
you know, raised three kids on
music. You know, so it's great

548
00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:35.719
and then so my, my,
it was fourth grade. No, it

549
00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:39.440
was second grade, fourth grade,
fourth grade. Trumpet never stopped. You

550
00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:43.559
mass marching band, high school,
you mass marching band. And you know

551
00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:46.760
you've you've seen me dabble a little. Now you're a great trumpet player a

552
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:52.039
little. It's about the Chuck MANGIONI
yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great.

553
00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:55.519
And you sing too, and you
haven't sung with the band yet,

554
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:59.719
so we've got to get you up
front on a couple of tunes. Well

555
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:01.360
they're couple that I have in mind, so I'll let you know that.

556
00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:05.679
But listen. Thank you very much
for being here. This has been a

557
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:08.559
fun discussion for me, and I
think it's been good for the audience as

558
00:46:08.599 --> 00:46:13.599
well. And I really appreciate the
time. Thank you, Kevin, I

559
00:46:13.639 --> 00:46:17.480
really appreciate for having me great,
thank you, and thanks everybody for watching

560
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:22.760
and listening. This is a show
about business and business challenges. If you've

561
00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:25.039
got concerns about the growth of your
company, feel free to reach out to

562
00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:29.960
me on Facebook or LinkedIn at Winning
Business Radio. The easiest email, at

563
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:34.400
least for this context is Kevin at
Winning Business Radio dot com. Our company

564
00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:37.559
is Winning Incorporated. We're part of
Sandler Training. We say we develop sales

565
00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:43.400
teams into high achievers and sales leaders
into true coaches and mentors. We're not

566
00:46:43.480 --> 00:46:45.800
right for everybody, but maybe we
should have a conversation. Thank you.

567
00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:51.039
Ongoing and every week to produce your
an engineer one for another job. We'll

568
00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:54.559
done. Be sure to join in
next week Monday, August seventh. If

569
00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:58.880
I land this next guest, it's
going to be a thrill for me and

570
00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:01.559
I believe for the audience as well. Until then, this is Kevin Helenhan.

571
00:47:04.519 --> 00:47:07.119
You've been listening to Winning Business Radio
with your host, Kevin Helenan.

572
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:12.440
If you missed any part of this
episode, the podcast is available on Talk

573
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:17.559
four Podcasting and iHeartRadio. For more
information and questions, go to Winning Business

574
00:47:17.639 --> 00:47:22.719
Radio dot com or check us out
on social media. Tune in again next

575
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:25.920
week and every Monday at four pm
Eastern Time to listen live to Winning Business

576
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:34.039
Radio on W fourcy radiowfourcy dot com. Until then, let's succeed where others

577
00:47:34.039 --> 00:47:38.280
have failed and win in business with
Kevin Helenan and Winning Business Radio