Bill Coyne-Estate Planning Attorney, founder of Boston Legacy Planning and Legacy Planning Network

0:00 The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not those of W forcy Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show, program, services, or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability, explicit or implied shall be extended to W fourcy Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing W FOURCY Radio. Churchill said, those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Kevin Helenan believes that certainly applies to business. Welcome to Winning Business Radio here at W four CY Radio. That's W fourcy dot com and now your host, Kevin Helena. Thanks everybody for joining in.

0:54 I am Kevin Hallen, and welcome back to another episode of Winning Business TV and Radio on w fource dot com. We're streaming live on Talk four tv dot com and of course on Facebook at Winning Business Radio, and of course we're available in podcast after the show on lots of platforms including YouTube, iHeartRadio, Spotify, Apple, pretty much wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. The mission of Winning Business radio and TV, as regular listeners know, is to offer insights and advice to help people avoid the mistakes of others, to learn best practices, right the how twos, the what twos, the what not twos, to be challenged, and certainly to be inspired by the successes of others. But you know, virtually every successful person I've ever talked to has had some form of failure in their lives and careers. So while we all have to get our knees skin once in a while, I always say I'm driven to keep those scrapes from needing major surgery. Let's endeavor to learn from history so we don't repeat it today. My guest is Bill Coin, estate planning attorney and founder of Business Legacy Planning, LLC and Legacy Planning Network. Here's Bill's bio. Bill Coin grew up the oldest, yes listen, the oldest of ten kids in an Irish Catholic family in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

2:08 In grade school, he thought he might become a priest. By the time he got to college, he wanted to be a rock musician. He still plays music, but is married and has two It held children. Bill is the founding member of Boston Legacy Planning, LLC. He's been in the private practice of law for over thirty years, initially focusing on business litigation. Bill was trained as a mediator in ninety seven and in collaborative law in ninety nine, and since that time the focus of Bill's practice has been a state planning, legacy planning, business exit planning, and asset protection planning, as well as the avoidance and resolution of disputes and involving trusts a state's business ownership and fiduciaries. The logo of Boston Legacy Planning, LLC is a state planning for human beings. I love that bill as a reminder of two important facts.

2:54 First that people care much more about excuse me, about more than money, and second that people's grew up, so the state planners need to provide guardrails to protect people from all those things that can go wrong after the will is signed. Bill's a certified legacy advisor and a certified business exit planning consultant. He served as the facilitator of the Member Advisory Board of the National Network of Estate Planning Attorneys. He's published articles in law journals about a technique to settle cases sooner. He's made dozens of presentations on tax and estate planning topics to attorneys, CPAs, and financial advisors. He also offers regular webinars on estate planning and business succession planning for individuals and business owners. More recently, Bill founded a startup company called the Legacy Planners Network, which offers consulting services to estate planning firms who want to build stronger relationships while making more money with their existing clients. Bill received his bachelor's degree in history and philosophy Philosophy I can talk from the University of Pittsburgh and his law degree from Boston College.

4:00 His husband to Jean, who's the executive director of the Southwest Boston Community Development Corporation, and dad to Phil who's a finished carpenter, and Sarah, who's a grad student in biochem at Harvard. Bill, Welcome to Winning Business Radio and TV. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Kevin, you got it. I know you're busy and I appreciate the time, so I want to jump in here. You grew up in the city of Pittsburgh in the region. Well, we're just outside the city, just south of a place called Homestead, which which historians though was the site of the Homestead Steal strike. So right, and a lot of people in the neighborhood worked in the mills, so it was very close to next town over from Pittsburgh. So describe that upbringing crowded we had with ten kids, Yeah, you know, we started off in a kind of a gi tracked house. Yeah, and then moved to a bigger place when they got to be like seven of us. But it was always interesting. I mean, it was always bunk bits. You didn't have much more choice of that m but as the oldest, you know, it was kind of I had had to help with the little ones, and so that got to be kind of an important part of who I thought of myself. I thought of myself as a big brother, and in some ways still do. So it was great.

5:29 Family was very devoutly Catholic, which I think is partly what led me to think about being a priest. Didn't take long for me to learn that that wasn't what got hid in mind for me once I got to high school or a later part of high school anyway. So yeah, so that was it was great, great way to grow up Pittsburgh was a great town to grow up. And when you were a little so you and I played music together. We'll touch on that later. So music was certainly an interest of yours growing up. What else were interests growing up? Um? Reading was always a big deal. Yeah. I was never much of an athlete.

6:10 Played a lot of whiffleball and uh, you know, pick up baseball, but never was much at Little league or any of that kind of stuff. I was more likely to be reading, and very when I was in high school, very scholarly. It was a pre seminary, so we were reading Greek and Latin. I took myself away too seriously in those days. Well, actually it's paid off, probably in other ways. It has in many ways. A matter of fact, when I was in sixth grade, I told people that I was thinking about being a priest, and my nickname was Father Bill through six seventh and eighth grade. Very yeah, not ideal, but the girls away. I think he's the girls away. What made the shoes pitt in a degree in history and philosophy. It was really that once I knew I did not want to be a priest, I thought I wanted to be a teacher and philosophy came naturally and always had an interest in history, was reading a lot of history, and Pitt was a natural because I could commute there, and tuition in those days was four hundred and fifty dollars a trimester. Wow, so a thousand over a thousand dollars a year, and all the way up to like eighteen hundred a year by the time I graduated. So it was not a tough decision. Yeah, and then you got your law degree later one drove that decision. And what were you doing

7:43 in between? Talk about that journey? Actually in between, I was a carpenter too. I got a little frustrated with the idea of being a history professor. It seemed well academic is actually the word for it. But there would be this notion that I would write this dissertation debunking the Frederick Jackson Turner frontier theory, and then thirty years later somebody would write a dissertation debunking my theory. Yeah, there didn't seem to be anything very solid to it. So the idea of going to work as a carpenter and at the end of the day, there's a wall there where there didn't used to be a wall with something that I found really appealing. That's cool. In the end, that just wasn't challenging enough. I decided I did want to do something that was used a little bit more of me, and I frankly settled on law.

8:37 It's kind of a compromise between being a history professor and a carpenter, maybe with a little bit of priest thrown in. Yeah, I think there is. I think there is. And then I always like to know why people chose a particular school. Sometimes it's that's the school I got into. Others there was an affinity there. You know, being a Catholic maybe had something to do with your choice. At BC, it probably did. I applied to several I got into be you as well, and I'm not really sure why. I think the fact that I had was Catholic may have been may have been a deciding factor. Well, fine law school, that's for sure. Yeah, and I got I really lucked out. I had some great professors. Marianne Glendon was first year property teacher, and she was just a just a wonderful teacher. So I had some my great experiences there.

9:28 You began your career at a firm called Lawson and Whitson, Right, how did you get that role? Actually, I started off with a guy named Carmen Derso Oh all right, and that was before Lawson and Whitson was pretty early on. But I was with Carmen for a couple of years while actually while I was in law school um and started off with him. He did business litigation, so that's what I did, and then I got hired away from Carmen by Lawson and Whitson. At the time it was Lawson and but that's again still when I was very interested in litigation, and so that was the beginning of the practice. It was very much business litigation because of the contract or background. I'm very interested in doing construction litigation. That's mostly what I was doing in those days. What as you think back, this is probably one of the hardest questions you'll have, were what was a key lesson you learned at Lawson? I think persistence, because what I found was when you are up against the other side has written a brief, you need to respond to it. That you need to go right at their strongest argument and go right at their best case and figure out what's wrong with it, figure out how it can be distinguished or how it can be turned around to help

10:58 you. And so that was that persistence I think was something I got from Evan lost. The other thing I got from Evan is have fun. You know, Evan was an amazing litigator, but he always had fun. And you were there for a long time, and then you founded bridges in Coin with a focus on a state planning and business exit planning. So I want to have two things. And this will be the last question. We'll take our first break right after this, talk about that experience and why you changed focus from business led to the state planning and business exit planning. I ended up getting very frustrated with the way the system was treating clients. So I've been at it enough years so that I was winning most of the cases I tried, but most of them were settling. The problem was that they were settling just before trial or sometimes even during trial. Yeah, and by that point, something that would have been a really good settlement on day one is now one that nobody wants because they spent so much money on legal fees.

12:05 Yeah, it's like the lawyers had eaten up all the settlement money during the two or three years of litigation. So that was frustrated. I've got and that's what I took the mediation training as a way to figure out how to settle cases sooner. I learned about collaborative law, which is another technique to help cases settle sooner. And I was in the middle of a transition from moving my practice from litigation to mediation or state planning when a guy in the office there at Lass and Whiteson asked me if forever thought about being an a state planner. And my impression of a state planners was that you need to wear a bow tie and suspenders and you know, crew cat play polo one weekend, very the very round classes. Right there you go, and it just it didn't fit. It was not me, so I was resistant, but he persuaded me to give it a try and introduced me to a group called the National Network of State Planning Attorneys that took an approach to a state planning that was all about problem solving, which was really what I liked about the dispute resolution stuff. The litigation excellent. That's a good place to break in segue. We will be right back after about just a minute. With Bill Coin. You're listening to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helena on W four CY Radio. That's W fourcy dot com. Don't go away. More helpful information is coming right up right here on Winning Business Radio. All right,

13:41 this is Roger McGlenn and you're listening to four at hey radio. Have you ever dreamt of being on the radio, Well, now it's your chance. Be a radio show guest on the number one ranked internet radio station and promote you and your business for free. Yes you heard it, free business advertising right here on W fourcy dot com. Call five six one five zero six four zero three one now to get booked on one of our shows. That's five six one five zero six four zero three one. Get your free advertising now. And now back to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helena, presenting exciting topics and expert guests with one goal in mind to help you succeed in business.

14:41 Here once again is Kevin Helena. We are back again with Bill Coin of Biggest Business. Hello, let's try that again. Boston Legacy Planning. Sorry, what was the hardest part starting the firm? And it was a while ago, but so it was really the kind of being alone. I've been at Lawson and Whiteson was which was a pretty big firm. Then I was a partner in Bridges in Coin and there was a kind of allocation of responsibilities and the other partner was responsible for all the administrative stuff. So all of a sudden, I've got to do it all now. I was fortunate in that in my time at the National Network of the State Planning Attorneys, they really put a lot of emphasis on practice management and marketing. So they had us read Michael Gerber. Right, we spent some time with that.

15:48 We did a Blue Ocean strategy, we did some Dan Sullivan stuff. Oh excellent. Yeah, So it was really the yeah strategic coach and some really stuff. So I kind of had the tools, but it was still a little bit scary to kind of actually launch the business and take off from there. And so it was really that getting don And I don't think I had read Lean Startup then, which is another one of the things that I really relied on. And frankly, I didn't have the luxury to do a lead startup, right. I just went all of a sudden from being part of the partnership to be a solo and trying to sort all of that out.

16:33 But I think it was a good experience to try to have to do all that and then to find space and you find a situation where I could do the practice, figure out how it was going to market it. What are the things I wanted to keep doing? What are the things I didn't want to do? And I guess it's the things any business owner asked to decide who's my ideal client? Right? Kind of all of this really core stuff. And I was lucky that I had the training come to the forth. What was You may have just touched on it, but what was the most rewarding or has been the most rewarding part of running your own firm. It's all the work with the clients. Yeah. Absolutely, to have that impact in people's lives and have people come in with a level of anxiety or an uncertainty or a concern about the most important thing that a lies really, you know, is my spouse going to be okay something happens to me? Are my kids going to be okay? Something happens to us? And to help people work through those issues, to figure out what they want to do, and then to put something in place to help them and then to follow up, which is something that a lot of estate planners don't do. And it's really one of the unique things about the national network model, which is that I learned from to have clients come back every year to get to know the family, what's going on in the life, what's changed. Is there a

18:06 new marriage, is there a new kid and new grandchild? Well, as a result of that, does your plan need to change? And people are really comfortable with the idea that their financial advisor is going to be keeping track of their investments and change those as the market changes. But somehow the idea that your lawyer is going to change your plan as the law changes is really foreign to people. So it's that ongoing relationship getting to know people. So that's not magic. That just doesn't happen. Unfortunately, No, I haven't seen that for me. Fortunately for me, it doesn't happen right right, So I want to revisit two terms you mentioned. I read in your bio and you mentioned a moment ago a few minutes ago, mediation and collaborative law.

18:52 Can you define those two terms for the audience. Sure, Mediation I think a lot of people are familiar with, and it's the idea if you're in a dispute, and it used to be you went the mediator before you went to lawyers. Very often these days, you very often go to mediation with lawyers, but you sit down with a neutral somebody who is a professional, experienced, trained at helping people work things out. And the mediator listens to people and listens for opportunities and tries to get people to reach common ground on various issues. And so that's what the mediator does. It's a neutral.

19:33 Collaborative law is similar in a way in with collaborative law. Essentially, it's like you're going to mediate without a mediator, and the idea is the lawyers will agree that their job is to settle the case and they're not going to threaten litigation and they're not going to go to litigation. And in the purest form of it, if you threaten litigation or if you file a lawsuit, the lawyer has agreed they will withdraw, so the client has to start again. So you've invested a lot in resolving this issue. We're really really serious about resolving it. And the article that I wrote a number of years ago kind of made the point that a lawyer is really conflicted because the lawyer will say, we really how to try to settle this case, knowing in the back of his or her mind that if the case doesn't settlement, there's you know, thirty forty fifty one hundred thousand dollars in legal fees there.

20:33 So it really it's more difficult to be wholehearted in recommending settlement or doing the things that need to do to be settlement. So that's kind of the collaborative law model. And then talk about you mentioned it as did your bio, the technique to settle cases soon, and you've actually written about that in law journals. It's the collaborative law process. It was called the Case for Settlement Council, and the ideas if you want to settle a case, for God's sake, don't hire a litigator they're going to litigate. Hire somebody whose job it is to settle. All right, talk about these two designations, Certified Legacy Advisor and Certified Business Exit Planning Consultant. Yeah. So one of the other pillars of my practice, aside from the national network, was got named Scott Farnsworth, and Scott got interested early on in what he calls legacy planning.

21:34 He had a group called the Sunbridge Legacy Builder's Network, and he was focused on the non financial aspects of planning. That people have a lot more than money to give to their kids. They want to pass on family stories, they want to pass on wisdom. If they're a business owner, they would love to pass on to the kids how to run the business successfully. If they've been parents and they've done a good job parenting, they hope their kids will be good parents too. So the idea of legacy planning is that you are going to pass on stories. You are going to pass on that values and family keeps says, you know, getting dad's telecaster, you know that he played at the high school, hop or whatever. It is a wonderful thing that keeps the parents alive, and particularly if there's a story that goes with it. So it's not just the guitar. It's the story of how it went out of tune at the completely inappropriate moment, right in the middle of a solo, right or the great dance where you played and your band got rave reviews and encorees and all of that stuff. And the enchantment of the sea ball. What's that? The enchantment of the sea ball?

22:56 Exactly? Exactly, Yeah, So that's the idea of legacy planning is that you're dealing with the human side of a state planning. And most of state planning focuses just on the money. But everybody's going to leave behind not just money, but memories and messes. And if you don't pay attention to the potential messages, you're going to lead behind bad memories. So legacy planning is really about taking that big picture and helping people pass on everything that's important to them. That's good. I'm just writing a note to you here in the chat, I spelled it wrong, So talk about and I'll cut you off in about four minutes here, Okay, talk about your current law focus, right, I want you to flush this out somewhere. What is a state planning you just mentioned legacy planning. Spend as much time as you want on that, and then we may not make it to the break. We'll talk about it when we come back. Business exit planning, asset protection, etc.

24:04 Yeah. So, while I do business exit planning, it's largely when the business exit plan is part of the person's estate plan. When the business exit plan and the estate plan are the same plan, which means it's a closely held business. Maybe it's partners, maybe it's a family business. That's really my focus there. The creditor protection is primarily for the next generation. How are you going to protect the kids from creditors? But the real focus, I would say is base a state planning, which is wills and revocable living trusts, and it's helping people do things like avoid probate, avoid a state taxes, do effective planning for what happens to me and my family if I become disabled, And so that's really the core and the heart of it is really planning for revocable living trusts. In my experience, when somebody comes to me and says I need a simple will, they have no idea what a simple will is. What they're really telling me is I'm not going to pay a lot for this muffler. But the reality is, as soon as I tell them about what is a will, what is a trust, everybody wants a trust. They just want to pay the simple will price for the trust. So beautiful. That's the real issue. So let's talk about that.

25:29 Here's what you really want, here's what you want to pay. What can we do? And so that's really the core of the practice is doing planning for people with wills, and trusts, and then also settlements after somebody dies. Now you have to put the will into practice in a probate, or you have to do the trust settlement, so that ideally the transition happens just the way people were hoping when they came to me for the planning. Tell us as is the theme of the of the program, and I want you to try to come up with something that's not obvious. All right, some mistakes that people have made with regard to exit life, exit planning, I'll call it. There are many. An easy one is no will, but right, oh for the people, Yes, I was just thinking of the lawyer, for the lawyer that's trying to do everything. The mistakes that people make are thinking that the state planning is a set of documents, and they think that once they sign their documents they're done. The next thing they have to do is die. They think that buying doing a state planning is like buying a big screen TV and big screen because they know it's going to be expensive. The state planning is really more like joining a health club.

26:55 Getting the documents is like paying the membership. See that's a really good analogy, but there's still a lot of things that have to be done or that's not just going to work. The documents are you said before magic. The documents aren't magic, but people act like they are. And then simply by signing the document, they are now all set. And I would say that's probably the biggest mistake, but then related mistakes thinking, for example, you're doing your kids and honor by naming them your executor or your trustee or your healthcare proxy. Right, I'm giving the kids the great honor of deciding when to pull the plug and kill me. Right. All of these are jobs that are difficult, and they're a lot more difficult if the kids don't know what to do before they start to do them. So we've really got to get the kids ready for that moment of transition by doing training. And that's another thing that people just don't do. People don't and organized, They name the kids to step up for them, and then things are all over the place. I had one woman who was to trust the of her mom's trust.

28:11 The mom had downsized, and the daughter when she started to commit and take over her affairs from twenty seven bankers boxes full of stuff that the mother had moved out of the house. She had to go through every one of the boxes because she had no idea whether there might be a life insurance policy whatever in there. So it's that that um being disorganized, right, not being ready, not getting the kids ready, and that puts it on their burden, on the on the successor and the survivor. Right, Yeah, that's right, and that's why I say the messes end up affecting the memories.

28:52 Let's let's pause right there. Get that story. I want to hear it, can't I want to hear it. We will be back in about another minute with Billcoin of Boston Legacy Planning. Let's take a commercial break. You're listening to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helena on W FOURCY Radio. That's W fourcy dot com. Don't go away. More helpful information is coming right up right here on Winning Business Radio. Hey, this is Elliott Lewis of Hall and Oates and you're listening to W four CWY Radio. The yp dot com website is your local search engine. If you're looking for a good restaurant, it can help you find the right one nearby with ratings and reviews.

29:42 Or if your car breaks down, you can use the ypapp to find the closest repair shop, or maybe you're just looking for something to do on a Friday night. While it has great local coupons for all sorts of things in your area, no matter what, when or where. If you're looking for something, YP Local Search can help you find it. So go to yp dot com or download the app to search local, find local, and save local. And now back to Winning Business Radio with Kevin Helena, presenting exciting topics and expert guests with one goal in mind to help you succeed in business. Here once again is Kevin Helena. We are back with Bill Coyn of Boston Legacy Plant Boston Legacy Planning. So now tell that story you just We're going to give an example, I think. Yeah. So I've once represented a woman whose husband owned a business. He had a buy sell agreement with his partner, and they had agreed with each other that if one died, the other will buy at the stock of the business, pretty common by cell cross purchase by selling. The problem was that when they bought the insurance, they each bought insurance on their own lives, payable to the spouse. So what happened was the guy dies. My client is the wife of the guy

31:15 who died. His estate owns his stock in the business, his wife has a million dollars and his partner has an obligation to buy the stock and no money to do it with. So what she ended up saying was that if he were alive, I'd kill him. And I see that a lot where people end up leaving. This is one of the real one of my ideal clients is and typically it's the woman whose husband has died, but it's the woman whose husband has died and left a mess, and she is quite sure she's never going to do that with her kids. So she really gets the idea of doing estate planning for human beings. Right. Oh, by the way, I love that tagline, the two important facts. Talk about those again. I read them, but I want you to flush them out.

32:15 The two important Oh, the fact that yes, it's that it's about more than money. People care about more than money. Is back to the legacy planning. Right. We do estate planning not so our kids will have money, but because we want their lives to be better, right, And we last thing they want to do is the kids to get money and blow it right or use it on something that's destructive. So the idea is, and we want them to use the money wisely and interestingly enough, We want them to use the money in a way that we think is wise, not in the way they think it's wise. But that's fine. So it's a it's a matter of understanding that estate planning is not just getting the money ready for the kids. It's getting the kids ready for the money. And it's about life goals. And the life goals are not about dollars amount in the account.

33:14 It's what's going to happen to my spouse, what's going to happen to my kids, and how can I do that? So that's one aspect of estate planning. And then the other fact is that we screw up. People screw up all the time. We get busy. We kind of know that there's stuff we need to do. Right the lawyer when people had their will their trust signed, the lawyer probably said, now make sure you put assets in the trust. If you don't put us assets in the trust, they won't work. Well. The wagging finger isn't enough because people don't know what to do and they're busy, and so they just let it go. It's stressful. So we have to understand that people are busy, and to some extent it's maybe go on our part. I've done this wonderful thing by giving this people a state plan on a state plan. They should appreciate it.

34:07 You know. I kind of get over myself in a way and understand that this is about in their lives and I have to find a way to get things done working with them, which is one of the advantages of a legacy planners network, right, because I'm going to have an ongoing relationship with these people. They're going to come back and I'm going to tell them how important it is to get that fidelity account into the trust right and that financial advisor was supposed to do it and he didn't do it. What do we do now? Well, I'm going to meet with them and I'm going to ask them at the end of the year did that get done? And if it didn't get done, we're going to talk about it, and I'm going to help them do the things that they really need to do. So so, I think part of a state planner for human beings is understanding that it really is about relationships and out about documents. When when my dad passed, our oldest sister handled most of that. There was very little he had to when you know, an old, smaller Winnebago and really nothing else. When Mom passed, there was a house and some investment accounts and some life insurance and I was the executor. And we were blessed because she lived a great life.

35:23 We knew she was passing from cancer. We had, you know, several good years and then on and off to two years of good and bad, but plenty of time, right, and my brother and sisters were and me and I credit my mother for this. We're very gracious. It was like no, no, no you, no, no, no you. It wasn't I want my share it. You know. We almost fell over each other to make sure that everyone was treated equally and that you know, yeah, it just was. I mean, she she did some planning. Uh it probably wasn't what should have happened, but it was just a good experience. But I've heard, just anecdotally, so many others that are not that way. I mean, families fight about money after somebody passes often, I'm sure you've seen it. Oh, in this notorious case, one of the root causes of dysfunctional planning his disputes. There was a Massachusetts case called a State of king where an elderly gentleman whose wife had died. He was grief stricken. He really was out of his mind for a while and just not capable of making decisions. The eldest daughter that was taking care of him took him to a lawyer to make a new will in which she was the primary beneficiary, of course, and they leaving the lawyer's office, he's saying, boy, they're really going to hate this. Little did he know so?

36:46 And it was a surprise that Everett was a shock. Everybody had been told that it was going to be shared equally. They opened the will and this one daughter gets everything. The family sued. Two different groups of the family sue. There's this claims of undue influence of incapacity, and there were really issues there. So three years later the daughter was appointed Winds. The will is allowed. She is in there. The estate was about a one point two million dollars estate. She submits the bill for her lawyers to be taken out of the estate eight hundred and ninety six thousand dollars in legal fees. There's another two hundred thousand dollars in legal fees for the other ones.

37:30 Basically a million dollars got taken up by the lawyers. And I was gonna say in the family is probably never the same never. And I've had situations where sisters and it can be a small thing, it can be a fairly small who gets the artwork that hung in the living room, Sisters who will never talk to one another again. And this is an area where my background in mediation and collaborative law ends up being very helpful in the dispute result in the trust field, because I will actually put an ADR provision into the trust that we'll say, if you're going to have a dispute, well, we're going to talk it over and if we don't resolve it, it's going to go to mediation. And if it doesn't get resolved in mediation, I may give people the option to say we're going to arbitrate so it's not public and it's going to be cheaper, or people can go to litigation. But the idea is, and then you work with the clients during lifetime. If there are two brothers that you know are going to be at each other throats after you die, let what can we do anything about it? Now? I know very few families where the relationships have gotten better after mom and dad die.

38:51 Yeah, but again that part of our homework. Part of the reason for the Legacy Planners Network is, you know, the work is helping with the family harmony, avoiding disputes. The documents are just the membership. We're still got to go and work out on the weights and also get the results. Sorry to clarify that good analogy. To clarify that Legacy Planners Network, you're consulting to other lawyers and law firms to help them with these techniques. Right, So, the Legacy Planners Network has been my own continuing contact program. I've called it that for years, ever since I started my own firm. That was the name I had from my clients. Coming back and having this, I started to use a new software tool a couple of years ago, I guess, and realized about a year ago that I could actually help other lawyers do an updating program. I could have their clients come to my updating program where I'm not their lawyer, right right, I'm a I'm a coach, I'm a consultant kind of like you. Right in some ways on that I agree with the law firm. I'm not going to do any legal work. My engagement letter with the client or the participation agreement with the client says, I'm not doing your legal work. If in the course of our discussing what needs to happen with your plan, you now need to do medicaid planning, I'm going to send you back to your lawyer and they're going to

40:22 do the legal work. But I'm going to do all this non legal stuff, right. I'm going to worry about the memories and the messages and less about the legal stuff. And so that is really they talk about lean startup. I'm just beta testing that idea now and we're trying different ways to kind of make the whole thing work. And he used technology to make it work. So that's my latest business challenge is really launching this new business that will help other lawyers have this ongoing contact with the clients to get additional lead to work from their own clients by having the clients engage in this updating program.

41:06 Love it all Right, We're gonna talk about two more things, the second second being music. The first what is your best advice to people that have not done any of this planning? Give them a couple of things they can do right away. Well, I think one of the things that they should do is get organized, and it will help when they go to see the lawyer if they're already organized. So if they can make a list of what the different assets are, if if there are any plant is anything other than everything to my spouse, and then the kids equally, I would think through about what they want to have happen. And then if there are some kids that maybe shouldn't get the money right away or shouldn't ever have complete control over it, so somebody else should be involved in the decisions, think about those problems, and that way when somebody goes to a lawyer and look for a lawyer that's going to be interested in hearing about that stuff. I mean, some lawyer's business model is to have your foreign documents and you have one meeting with the clients and sign them up, get the information to fill in the blanks on your word processor, and then you go into your program and you spit out the documents and they come back a week later and you sign everything and then thank god, you're done with them. Never have to see those

42:37 people again, right, So you want to avoid Yeah, that's the business model for years, So I would say, it's looking for a lawyer who will deal with the whatever complications might exist in your in your family. I would say, but I think getting organized is the kind of the biggest part. Make sure you have the documents for the different accounts, and then then you're ready to meet with a lawyer and being mentally ready to kind of know what the issues are a big deal, really a lawyer, all right, So now let's talk about music. This will take us the next few minutes and we'll wrap up. You and i've played music together full disposure. We've known each other for a few years or both part of provisors. How did that begin? I can tell you my story real quick, but how did that? How did your passion for music begin? Watching my dad play the yuku aile really, yeah, that's a that's a cool little instrument. It's going to be played ukulele. And then he broke down and got a guitar and was singing the songs he grew up with. And so I got to be at fifteen, and I decided I wanted to play guitar. So I banged away on my dad's old guitar, and then I went to college and got into a blues band cool, and then the bass player left, and

44:12 so I decided to switch to bass, and so played bass in blues and rock bands for a while and then went back to Irish music. So it's kind of enjoyed that I played guitar to back up Irish music and then more recently took up mandolin and banjo so I would play lead at the Irish music sessions. So it's been a it's been a long strange trip, as Jerry Garcia might say. So we were a musical family. My mother was a teacher, and I don't remember the edict, but I know it was pretty much pretty much pick an instrument right, yeah, And oldest sister piano and voice. Older brother guitar. She still dabbles, she still sings a lot.

45:00 She's very good. Uh. Brother plays guitar all the time, loves it and sing. My youngest sister makes has made her living for years out of music. She teaches, she does some therapy therapeutic music with it's um he's of mb it's she's really fascinating. She's written, she's performed everywhere. Uh, she's she's a phenom. She makes she's made her living. Uh you know, raised three kids on music. You know, so it's great and then so my, my, it was fourth grade. No, it was second grade, fourth grade, fourth grade. Trumpet never stopped. You mass marching band, high school, you mass marching band. And you know you've you've seen me dabble a little. Now you're a great trumpet player a little. It's about the Chuck MANGIONI yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great.

45:52 And you sing too, and you haven't sung with the band yet, so we've got to get you up front on a couple of tunes. Well they're couple that I have in mind, so I'll let you know that. But listen. Thank you very much for being here. This has been a fun discussion for me, and I think it's been good for the audience as well. And I really appreciate the time. Thank you, Kevin, I really appreciate for having me great, thank you, and thanks everybody for watching and listening. This is a show about business and business challenges. If you've got concerns about the growth of your company, feel free to reach out to me on Facebook or LinkedIn at Winning Business Radio. The easiest email, at least for this context is Kevin at Winning Business Radio dot com. Our company is Winning Incorporated. We're part of Sandler Training. We say we develop sales teams into high achievers and sales leaders into true coaches and mentors. We're not right for everybody, but maybe we should have a conversation. Thank you.

46:46 Ongoing and every week to produce your an engineer one for another job. We'll done. Be sure to join in next week Monday, August seventh. If I land this next guest, it's going to be a thrill for me and I believe for the audience as well. Until then, this is Kevin Helenhan. You've been listening to Winning Business Radio with your host, Kevin Helenan. If you missed any part of this episode, the podcast is available on Talk four Podcasting and iHeartRadio. For more information and questions, go to Winning Business Radio dot com or check us out on social media. Tune in again next week and every Monday at four pm Eastern Time to listen live to Winning Business Radio on W fourcy radiowfourcy dot com. Until then, let's succeed where others have failed and win in business with Kevin Helenan and Winning Business Radio